Awaken to Your Next Chapter: Artist and Activist Lisa Congdon on Imagining a More Beautiful Life

Jen Hatmaker: Lisa, welcome to the show.  I was telling Amy earlier when she first got here, I’m like, I feel like I’ve been around Lisa’s work for just ages. Like I just conflate art and joy and really, really good commerce and marketing with your name. Like, well done you. You’ve had such like amazing success. It’s really awesome to look at from the outside and just a joy to find out when you kind of started the genesis of your work. And we’re going to get into all that, but it’s just one of the stories that I love the most. And I was just, I was really telling Amy all that in advance.

Lisa Congdon: Thank you. That’s so nice to hear.

Jen Hatmaker: You’re one of those people that I love to talk to so much for so many reasons. And not the least of which is right here, which is where we’re going to start. Because this is the perfect explanation of why we so wanted to have you on.

This was two years ago. It indulged me in reading your own words back to your face. Okay. You put this on Instagram on your 55th birthday. You said, my life as a 55 year old is not how I would have imagined it when I was 13 or 17 or even 29 or 35. I’m not actually sure how I would have imagined myself as a 55 year old person, but I do know I would not have imagined that I would be an artist, especially in all the ways I’m an artist or that I would ride my bike thousands of miles a year up and down mountains or that I would travel to foreign countries by myself or that I’d be happily and legally married to a woman who loved me back or that I would be so rich in friendship or that I would feel so happy and content and excited about what’s next. I love all of that.

Today I am really grateful for this life and to have reached this age and that I am so immeasurably fortunate. Just, that’s everything. I love that so much. So, so much. And so, if you will indulge us just for a minute, I’d love to go back to say Lisa at 35. Like who were you? Who was that Lisa? Who was that Lisa at the time? Who did that Lisa think she was going to become? I’d love to hear it.

Lisa Congdon: I think the real difference between Lisa then and Lisa now is that I really had no sense of agency when I was 35. I believed I was unlovable. I think some of that was the way I was raised. My love language is words of affirmation and my parents are kind of hard knocks, silent generation folks who weren’t and still aren’t into words of affirmation. And so I always questioned my inherent worth because very few people in my life as a kid told me I was good or worthy. I think some of that was being queer and my own internalized homophobia.

I think I was also someone who believed and really never entertained any other option that I was a victim of circumstance or bad luck. And so I did, I had no real sense of, you know, power in myself that I could live the life that I wanted. Never even occurred to me. It was like, I haven’t met the person who’s gonna love me forever. Darn it, or there must be something wrong with me so that that hasn’t happened. I’m not succeeding at work well, bad luck or, I guess it was a combination of yeah, like this sense of bad luck or fate or that, or some sense of unworthiness.

I was a really sensitive person as a child and I don’t think I got what I needed to feel safe and secure. So I also want to say that I know my parents loved me and I know they did the best that they could. They’re really wonderful people, but they were young and they didn’t really have the tools they needed to parent three kids with three very different sets of needs. And so that was sort of like, I was one of those people, and when I say I didn’t feel unlovable, I didn’t necessarily feel like a garbage human. Like I knew I was a good person, but I didn’t like imagining that I could be a person who influenced other people or made art that people will pay thousands of dollars to buy. Not that money really matters. It’s more just like the idea of that or that, you know, I would write books or fall in love and stay married to somebody who I had a really profoundly healthy relationship with. Like, I just could never have imagined that for myself. I think I imagined myself sort of living a really kind of sad, mediocre life. Fortunately, some things happened that changed all of that, but that’s sort of where I was at 35.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah. My gosh, that’s so funny.

Listen, there is a downside to the opposite of that. I will just tell you, and Amy will confirm this. If I were to loan you my dad, my dad is his only gear is words of affirmation. He doesn’t have another gear. And so what happened, I’m the oldest of four kids, is that my dad so overly affirmed us that we all like stared into adulthood thinking, well, we are the shit. Like all four of us, apparently, I guess this family just hit the jackpot. And so we were like solidly in our like late twenties before it occurred to any of us that we were just sort of medium. Like we did not know that we were the average, like maybe average plus at best. So listen, I’m just saying there’s a downside to too many words.

Amy knows, she’s like close to my dad. Like I loaned my dad out to my friends. I’m like, just let’s bring Larry in. He will make you feel better about this, whatever. Even if you have profoundly failed, my dad will find a way to be like, well, it’s everybody else’s fault that they’re jackasses. He would, wouldn’t he?

Anyway, I’m just saying. Yeah, someone between your dad and mine is like probably a healthy dad.

Lisa Congdon: That is so funny. Yeah, I could have used your dad. He’s probably the perfect dad.

Jen Hatmaker: In your book, Find Your Artistic Voice. You said, until I was my mid thirties, I didn’t think my life mattered much or that I had anything interesting to say. Making art changed my relationship to my story. So what was the genesis of that? Like, how did art come in and change your perspective on your own life?

Lisa Congdon: So around the time I was, gosh, I was probably 36 or 37. I was pretty depressed and really struggling in my life. I mean, I had a good job and I was pretty successful in what I was doing at the time I worked for an education nonprofit. I had friends, I was a competitive swimmer at the time and I had a pretty full life looking at it from the outside, but inside I was definitely sad and out of desperation I was like, I need to go to therapy. And I had been to therapy before, but I hadn’t really seen a therapist who was able to help me or break through. Found this really amazing woman and she, she at first helped me to come to terms with this belief that I was unlovable. You know, I was sort caught up in this notion of being unlovable and it became my identity. And then, you know, the cycle kind of played out in every human relationship, you know, you know, would choose people who were sort of unavailable or kind of dicks to me. And then, you know, it would reinforce that identity, you know.

And she also helped me see this core belief I had, which is that I was a victim of life. And until that point, I really had never entertained another possibility. And she suggested to me that I was kind of creating my own unhappiness by choosing to stay in this cycle. And you can’t take that as like she’s blaming me for my own happiness, which she wasn’t. We definitely sort of unpacked my childhood and that whole process. But she suggested to me that I also had the power to create my own happiness. And I didn’t really know how that worked, but I was like, you know what? I’m all in. I’ve hit rock bottom here.

So one of the things I decided to do was sort of develop this new narrative for my life. I began to reframe my story for what my life could be and who I was and who I wanted to, you know, become. And I needed to start believing, not just saying, but believing that I had worth and that I was smart and talented and worthy of love and all the things that I had previously told myself that I wasn’t. And I understood for the first time that no one could do that for me, not a partner, not a friend, not my parents, right? No one but me. And I had sort of been living with a lot of shame, very internalized shame. And I think I started to understand that what undoes shame is giving it a voice. So I spent a lot of time in therapy uncovering all this stuff I’d been pushing down in a way, the things about myself that I hated, I never gave word to, but like walked around with every day. And I began to sort of acknowledge and release all of that stuff, like say it out loud to this person who wasn’t judging me. And it was like a cleansing.

And then I was able to move on in a different direction with agency and purpose. And that’s when I started making art and dreaming of what my life could be and how I could show up in the world. And that was really the genesis. And of course, you know, that took years of practice and failing and, you but that was really the moment. It wasn’t like one moment, but sort of like a series of moments that really shifted my life in a new direction. And I wish everyone who went to therapy had that sort of profound experience and it doesn’t always happen, but for me it did. And I’m forever grateful for that.

Jen Hatmaker: I love that origin story. I would really like to hear you talk about what happened there in those earliest years because you, I mean, you did Scorched Earth. You did a whole new deal. You started essentially kind of a whole new trajectory. And I really like the way that you’ve talked about that a lot of times online in just this sort of through the lens of this was a learning process and a learning curve and a failure process. And you you don’t just come straight out of the gate and land a huge account at Target. You know, like this was a deal and I love it.

I was telling Amy one of my favorite stories is a pivot story where a woman has gone north of that season where we’re encouraged to chart our course and then I guess follow it till we’re dead. I don’t really know. I think that storyline is changing obviously now, but that at that point you’re like, I’m going in a different direction entirely. Not just in my career, but in my life narrative, in my relationships. That’s a pretty big deal. So can you talk about the earlier years of developing your art? Where did that come from? And was that just dormant in your little body until you like lit a match under it? That’s a pretty big departure.

Lisa Congdon: I think it was dormant. I was in a relationship with a woman for about almost a decade when I was in my 20s before any of this happened. And she passed away suddenly about four or five years ago and we had stayed in touch after we broke up. So it was pretty, pretty sad. And her sister and I are still really close and she sent me a bunch of stuff that I had made for her and given her when we were together. And so there were all of these pieces of art that I had made for her and all of these creative projects that I did. So it was such a good reminder that like, I think I’ve always been an artist and I’ve always been a maker and I’ve always been super creative. But because I was so full of self-doubt, I never really did anything with it or put it out into the world in any way, not that you have to, if you’re a creative person. But you work at a bank and that makes you happy, then that’s what you should do. But I clearly was meant to like make art and put it into the world.

And so I think what happened at that moment that I just described earlier was that I kind of gave myself permission to just play and explore. Like I cannot tell you the level of joy and excitement I felt once I realized that I could change my own life. It was like I was like lit on fire because, for so many years, I had no sense of agency and all of a sudden I was like, wait, I can do whatever I want. I can create the life I want.

And so, I just started to do that, and part of that was, working on relationships and all kinds of other things, but part of it was just really letting myself be creative.

At the time, I had a full-time job and I set up this room in my apartment. I was living by myself in San Francisco at the time and I had this room in my apartment and I just set it up as an art studio. And I started taking classes and I had, again, I had no aspiration to be a professional artist. It was more like, I’m just gonna explore this part of myself. I mean, it was probably within a few years that I was like, I wanna do this all of the time. But really it was initially more like, what do I have to lose? Like, why not me? Why wouldn’t I do this? Like, this is what I wanna do. And then I started a blog. I had a blog like in the early days and it was called A Bird in the Hand. And I started writing about what I was making and I was crafting a lot. Would have considered myself more of a crafter at the time. And then that sort of all evolved.

And eventually, I think because the timing of this awakening, for lack of a better term, for what was happening in my life, was right at the time that the internet was becoming a space for creative people to share what they were making. And I was sort of at the precipice of that. So I started, you know, had this blog and then, you know, I was, I got on Flickr and I was like sharing photos of stuff I was making and I was meeting all of these other bloggers and makers. And I started to see a picture of what was possible through what other people were doing. And of course, what was possible then is very different than what’s possible now because the internet has changed and ways of sharing and selling your work on the internet has changed. I was really, like the timing of my entry was right when that was happening. And this was like 2004.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, totally. I mean, that was the front edge of that space.

Lisa Congdon: And then I was also exposed to people who were blogging about other things, like not creativity related at all, but being a mom or this whole world that we’ve been part of. And I just started kind of meeting people and probably, unbeknownst to me, influencing people by the stuff that I was making and writing about. And you know. eventually in 2007, I went part time at work and I was like, you I’m gonna try this. And then within six months, I quit my job because I was like, not making a ton of money, but I was making enough to pay my mortgage and I just wanted to give it a try. I thought, what have I got to lose?

Jen Hatmaker: Just for context, at that time, what did that look like in terms of how were you monetizing? Were you selling to individual people? Did you have a digital storefront? It’s fun to see the arc of how your work has found its way into the world. What was it like there?

Lisa Congdon: Yeah, I opened an Etsy shop. I haven’t been on Etsy for years now because I have my own e-commerce shop, but that was the place that I started and I was selling really janky things, to be honest. Occasionally through my blog, I would get a commission. I was being asked to have shows and little stores. I wasn’t in the gallery world yet, but really kind of small time stuff. At the time, I also opened a shop in San Francisco with a friend of mine. And it still exists today. It’s called Rare Device and it’s on its third owner now. But that was originally the store I opened with my friend Rina. So that was like a little bit more income.

So I found this sort of ways to cull together, you know, enough to get by. And by 2012 or ’13, which was only, you know, I don’t know, five years later, I was being asked by Chronicle Books to write a book about making a living as an artist. That’s how, that five years felt like forever to me, but it was so fast. I really figured out very quickly how to make this work. And I think part of that is because I was already in my 40s. I had all of this work experience. I had worked in an office. I knew how to communicate with people. I understood the importance of timely communication and meeting deadlines. And I just had dialed in a lot of what you don’t necessarily know when you’re 22 or 23 and just exiting art school. It was almost like my business skills were way more advanced than my art skills. That was really where I needed to catch up because I’m self-taught and I, you know, I had to like really practice drawing and you know, all of that like pretty seriously.

I also signed with an agent in 2008 and she saw something in me that I didn’t even see in myself. Like I had, my portfolio was pretty small, but she just, I think she just knew and she took a risk on me and I stayed with her for about six years until I went out on my own. And that was also really confidence boosting for me and super helpful. She mentored me quite a bit. So a lot of really pivotal things happened in the beginning there. And I was a mature adult and I just really worked on refining my technical skill.

You know, around the same time I got into a relationship, I was used to sort of working all of the time. And then that really had to shift.  And I had to have more boundaries around work so that I could make time for this new relationship. Yeah, that was sort of like how I started at the time.

Jen Hatmaker: Man, I appreciate so much that you have found a way as a queer artist to blend your passion with standing up against injustice, working with nonprofits and marches and causes, using your art in such an important way, but also maintaining so much joy and life and color and happiness. Like how have you drilled down on that ability to maintain joy when working on such important things?

You’ve said, I think you wrote on Instagram, art isn’t always pain and angst. For many of us, it’s survival and ultimately real joy. So can you tell us about your personal aesthetic?

Lisa Congdon: Yeah, yeah. Well, a little context. When I first, when I was a working woman, I worked at a nonprofit and we, our mission and vision was like, basically was like, the OG D-E-I work. So we were like going into schools and working with schools on their own internalized, you know, racism and working with teachers on sort of changing their perspective on expectations for kids of color and things like that. So I was sort of steeped in this world of social justice before I became an artist. And so when I left to open the shop with my friend and make art full time, I felt kind of guilty that I was leaving this other world behind. And I think I imagined myself just sort of sitting in my studio, drinking my tea and listening to NPR and drawing and like, and when I finally had my own studio and was making art for a living, there was something that felt like it was missing.

And so, over the years, sort of more and more and more, my passion for social justice sort of got enveloped into my work. I think it took a real turn in 2016, but you know, it always sort of has been. And so, you know, that has always been an important part of my work. And because I spent so many years, as somebody who was living in a lot of darkness, and then I finally found this light, you know, in myself and in the world, and I just started living with more joy and more agency, it sort of naturally came into my work. Like, I’m asked quite a bit, you know, like, because I do tackle heavy subjects in my work, but my work is also sort of colorful and bold and bright and often very joyful. And I think that it is the marriage of like my passion for social justice sort of married with this kind of very authentic joy that I have for life. And that sort of marriage seems to really work for me.

I don’t know that I’m able to make work that is dark. You know, some of my work is dark, some pieces are darker than others. And, I have some pieces that I think are pretty powerful in their edginess. But, you know, most of my work is sort of, my approach is, I think about how do I want to say this thing? Like, so that people will hear it and is this thing that I’m about to say something that I’ve lived and experienced myself? That’s also another important rule to me that every issue that I address through my work has to be something that I either have personal experience with or that has touched me personally so that it can come from a very like authentic place.  I guess that also leads me to say things in a way and just sort of plain language that people understand. Cause I’m not, I’m not bullshitting, you know? And so that comes through, I think, and I spend a lot of time thinking about how I wanna say things. Not just in, you know, on Instagram and a written description of my art, but like actually in the messages of my work. And then, you know, how can I best express this through color and shape and symbol.

It’s hard as an artist to kind of describe what you’re thinking about when you’re making art because it all just comes so intuitively. But it is something that I have become known for and makes me. I love that people say to me, your work is so powerful, but it’s also so joyful. I think that’s so important right now. I think it is the only way we are going to survive right now is through joy and through resilience and through hope. And whatever I can do to contribute to that, I’m there.

Jen Hatmaker: : I cannot agree more. That’s why we asked you that question. We are just reeling and I’m noticing right now, particularly in this calendar year, since everything just waves hands around everything, how corrosive an effect it has on me. If I have not curated my intake right now, I’ve said on the show for the last couple of months, for better or for worse, I have not been on the news since November 6th, like cable news, like whatever turns onto your TV, that kind of news. And then I noticed that’s not even enough for me to not walk around with the spirit of such despair.

I had to curate my feed too. And I’m talking about even people that I have followed for years with whom I am in alignment. Like we are rowing in the same boat and even then the constancy of despair and outrage. I just noticed I’m not doing well and I need to be doing better than this as a leader and as somebody for whom I’ve got a community paying attention and so I’ve got my eyes tuned. I am looking for people who are still telling the truth. I’m not interested in imagining that everything is fine or sticking my head in the sand or just turning a back on injustice. I don’t have that gear either. I couldn’t do that if I wanted to.

But I am looking. Who can help me hold truth with hope and joy and goodness and possibility still? And I find that demographic to be small. That’s a shrinking space to try to find and grapple for and I think we’re gonna have to fight for it with a lot of intention. And so I appreciate you being one of those people, one of those voices who is doing a both and right now, but you’re still being a truth teller. You’re still being a justice seeker and you are being a joy creator. It’s a very, very tricky needle to thread. And I’m really, really grateful for it. Just as a person who’s seeking that out right now and having a hard time finding it.

If I change the dial on the type of intake, am I being a bad leader? Am I being a bad citizen? It’s so weird in the head right now. It’s so noisy and disastrous. So I’m curious as somebody in the queer community for whom things are pretty dire. I mean, they always have been to be honest, but it certainly feels like we are regressing right now, and you’re a woman, s sorry about that body that you’re also living in. So you’re in a couple of demographics right now that are in trouble.

I’d like to hear how you are maintaining your hope. How are you keeping that alive? What are you doing to keep it flickering and active and sincere, not just false positivity. That’s not helpful for anybody right now. What’s keeping the flame lit for you?

Lisa Congdon: First of all, thank you for all the things you just said. That means a lot to me. The first thing that I had to come to terms with, or I have come to terms with, or that I understand profoundly is my privilege. I am straight passing. My wife is not, but I am straight-passing. I am financially well-off. And I live in Portland, Oregon, which is probably one of the most wonderful safe havens for queer people in the country. And Oregon, in general, has got massive protections for queer and trans people. So I have an enormous amount of privilege. And so the question I like to ask myself is…

Yes, sure, I’m part of the queer community. I have, you know, people who are extremely close to me who are trans and non-binary and all of these populations who are being attacked and there are attempts at their erasure. And, because I am in a position where I’m sort of adjacent, well, I’m in the community and adjacent, like very closely adjacent to all of these people, I’m in an interesting position because I have a platform that is large. And I do think that even I don’t necessarily feel like I’m in an echo chamber entirely. I think to a certain degree I have a lot of influence over my followers and around trans issues in particular.

I feel like after the 2016 election, it was like whack-a-mole because there was like so many issues and we were all trying to solve all of them. And by now we’re like, okay, we all know what the things are. And so we’ve got to focus on one and, or, know, whichever ones you care most about and people are tackling different things. And this is the issue that I decided to focus on. It’s not that I don’t care about immigration and abortion rights and all of those things. But, you know, this is the most personal thing to me. I have a platform, I’ve got some privilege here, and I have a talent that can change minds, if I use it well. And so I get up every day and I think about what I can do.

I still also listen to the news or read things that make me cry. I have moments where I feel so sad and defeated just like everyone else. But I also happen to be this pretty resilient person and I’m pretty good at sort of removing myself from drama. And I have a pretty good ability to compartmentalize, for better or for worse. This is what I’m meant to do right now.

And I spent a lot of time in the last 10 years really thinking about purpose and the role of purpose in my life and values. I even published a Live Your Values Deck that people can use to sort through their own values to sort of figure out what’s important to them. And service and generosity are two examples of values that are really important to me. I wake up every day and think about how I can use my skill and talent and influence for good. And this is how I’m doing it right now. I manage, I think it’s so helpful for me because I feel like there’s something I can do and there’s a way I can influence. I’m sure you experienced this too. You have an audience, people look up to you and there’s something about that that is this like responsibility and I take it very seriously.

Most of my friends are not famous artists and don’t have half a million Instagram followers. And, you know, I think sometimes it’s harder for them. Like, yes, I’m in the public eye and people can disagree with me publicly and potentially I could become a target, but I have these ways that I’m able to show up because of what I’ve built. And I think for a lot of my friends, it’s harder because they’re like, who am I? What can I actually do that’s gonna make a difference? And I think in some ways they’re struggling more because they feel so powerless in the face of what’s happening. And I’m just grateful that there is something I can do and I’m gonna try to do it every single day. So that’s kind of how I do that. And I’m gonna do it as joyfully as possible.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, thank you. It makes a huge difference. For sure does.

Before we wrap up, we want to talk to you about this idea of “loud quitting” that you’ve talked a lot about. Obsessed. In having all these conversations with women our age about pivoting, re-examining our lives, like finding different purpose, we’ve got to free up space.

In order to do these new things, whether we know what they’re going to be or not. And sometimes that requires loud quitting. You’ve written about it and you’ve said, “I’ve been on a systematic mission to examine and quit everything in my life and work that feels finished or draining or one-sided or without purpose or joy. So far in the past nine months, I’ve quit alcohol, food restrictions, teaching college, my podcast, two boards of directors, working on Fridays, working on emptying client projects at once, on and on.”

And you’ve not felt as happy and balanced ever. Can you talk to us about this idea and what made you start just embracing loud quitting in your life?

Lisa Congdon:  Yeah, yeah. I did this when I was 55, so two years ago, almost exactly. It continues to this day. I don’t have much left to quit because now my life is sort of pared down to the things that really matter to me. But I found myself at this point where I was burned out. I mean, yes, I love what I do and I’m definitely a people-pleaser. So I was saying yes to a lot of things over the years. And I found myself in this place where I was sort of exhausted and miserable. And I found that I was doing things out of obligation. Even things that, you know, people would come to me and say, want to collaborate with you on this thing. And it was a beautiful thing, a wonderful thing, but that I was already tapped out or, you know, you know, it involved something, me doing something that I just didn’t want to do. And so I really worked hard at letting go.

And it really did start with sobriety. My sobriety journey is sort of interesting. I, quit drinking after my one and only bout of COVID. I got so sick and my inflammatory response was so intense that the doctor was like, no sugar, no alcohol. And then I stopped drinking. After I got well, I never drank again. I was in this place of such clarity about, I was definitely drinking too much before. I was probably drinking seven days a week, at least half a bottle of wine. Wine was my wine down at the end of the night, or at beginning of the night, I should say. And I had such clarity, and all of a sudden I was like, wait a second, I want to feel this sense of relaxation and clarity and chill way more.

And so I’m going to, yeah, I just got in this sort of systematic process of like taking an inventory of my life essentially. Like, what is it? How am I spending my time? I would go through every day and every time I felt that sort of rush of anxiety go from my stomach to my chest, I would stop and I would say, okay, Lisa, what’s happening for you right now? Why are you feeling this way? And is it because you’re about to do something you don’t wanna do or you’re overwhelmed because you feel too crunched or you feel like you can’t get off the hamster wheel because it’s just been going nonstop. And I started to question everything and then I sort of had to systematically quit things.

I did it, I was loud about it. I had to leave these two boards of directors and I was like, you know, I love y’all, but I’m trying to simplify my life and have more spaciousness. And I realized that this is a value of mine that I’m not honoring. I was teaching at the college level at that time. I left that and I just sort of like started making more time and I stopped working on Friday. So I still only do a four day work week and it was just incredible. And I was not trying to hide from anybody, I just wanted people to know it wasn’t quiet quitting. I wasn’t gonna like walk away from something and hope that the other person didn’t notice that I was gonna be really clear about why I was leaving.

And I didn’t get anything but respect from people. I think people saw me as a responsible, hardworking person and that this wasn’t an indication of my laziness or my apathy. This was just me taking care of myself. And by example, I could potentially influence other people to do the same. And that felt really good. And, you know, I still get myself into situations sometimes where I’m like a little bit and over my head like I just took the last three months off to have two knee replacements, and I’m doing great by the way and I full expect full recovery, and I’m already like hustling around like I used to but, you know, it was the first time that I had taken three months off of work to just tend to myself.

And even after all this loud quitting for the two years prior, there was still stuff that came up for me that I realized I was doing out of obligation or that I really needed to let go of. It’s like peeling away layers of an onion. You you think you’re done and then there’s just more and more and more and more. And I feel like that’s sort of my life’s work, especially as I’m getting older, like shedding, making space for new things.

Like how do I want to live the next 25 years of my life? And like setting myself up for that in a way that is gentle and kind to myself.

Jen Hatmaker: I’m obsessed with this. Just absolutely obsessed. The idea of just learning to notice that the little spike of anxiety is such a good on ramp to this. Just go, if you could just pay attention to that and then give yourself a few minutes just to sit with it and go, wow, where’s, what’s the source of this? The amount of times I have little anxiety spikes like that and then I just power through is endless. I could never count how many, when I was reading through your list of things that you quit, I’m like, Oh, Oh, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep, yep. Like so many spaces that for me just drain, just drain. But I just do it because I, I want to please and I’m a hard worker and I have this really toxic idea of ever being lazy.

Jen Hatmaker: I’m just a real hard worker. And so the thought that some choice I making appears lazy is just such a deterrent for me, which is the dumbest thing ever. So I really appreciate your leadership on this.

Lisa Congdon: Thank you.

Well, I was gonna say too that when that feeling of anxiety comes up for you, it isn’t always that you need to quit something that you’re doing. Sometimes you realize that, like I was having anxiety this morning just because I was gonna be on your podcast. And I was a little nervous, because I look up to you and I was like, well, it’s gonna be fine. You’ve done this a million times before. She’s such a nice person. Amy seems like a really great person. Like it’s gonna be so comfortable. And of course it is. And I’ve had the best time, but you know, sometimes anxiety is your nervous system trying to protect you from harm, you know, and it’s just something, but the same tool of stopping, acknowledging where is this coming from and letting it flow through you and letting it dissipate is so helpful, regardless of whether or not it’s a sign that you need to stop doing something. Or maybe just that you’re anxious, you know, for other reasons.

And it’s a tool that I’ve really, like… it’s funny, I’m like closer now to 60 than I was to 50 and like, that kind of is so bizarre to me sometimes. And…think about like all of the things that I’m still learning. In the last two years is really the time when I have started to pay attention to anxiety and really listen to it and not power through it and I always think, gosh if I had learned this 30 years ago how different would my life have been. And I feel so lucky to be a teacher of those things to people who potentially are younger and can learn from it. And I’m also so grateful that I finally figured that out.

Jen Hatmaker: Totally. Amazing.

Okay, this is the last. Having like now you’ve had such a wide swath of commercial success. I mean, just in ways and in places and in partnerships with vendors, you could just probably could have never even thought up. You know, it’s just all just bananas. And so I’m curious because also you’ve dipped into several buckets. You don’t just have the one lane. You have a highway, a super highway. And so I’m curious just personally for you, cause maybe it’s surprising. Maybe it’s obvious. I don’t know which one. Thus far, what has been the whatever the partnership or the account or the commissioning or the contract, whatever it is, the project that you were like, what? Like this is my favorite thing and the most amazing like career highlight thus far.

Lisa Congdon:
Well, it really, wasn’t a commercial job, although I’ve had many really amazing commercial jobs. I was asked in towards the end of 2022 to have a solo exhibit at the St. Mary’s College Museum of Art, which is also the Museum of Art at my alma mater. And it was a really full circle moment for me. First of all, it’s my first museum show. It was alongside the work of Corita Kent. Corita Kent was this very well known pop artist from the 60s and one of my heroes and influences. So it was like, they asked me to fill the other half of the museum because they knew that I think I had talked about her being an influence. First alumna ever to have a solo show there. And my experience at college was, I think it was definitely, you know, the beginning of my journey, know, it was the first time anyone was like, you’re smart, you’re talented, you you go do something with your life, you know, because as I said, you know, I grew up in a home where there wasn’t a lot of like, heavy complimenting going on or affirmation. And that was really, I had such a wonderful experience there. And so when I was asked to do this show, it was really incredible. It’s a Catholic institution. I’m not Catholic. I happened to go to a Catholic college. Out queer person have been since I graduated. And they basically were like, do you! And so I created this whole installation in the museum and it was like, know, Lisa’s, you know, like greatest hits, basically. I created some new work, but then there was a lot of recreation of some other work that had been, you know, protect the vulnerable and you know, some of the other pieces that were so had gone viral in the past. And the show was super well received and they ended up extending it for months. The whole process from start to finish of like planning that show, creating the pieces for it, installing it, going to the openings, seeing people experience it, hearing from people that they cried the minute they walked through the door, having it be at this place that was so formative in terms of who I was as a human being was just so special and I will never forget it. I don’t know if I will ever have a solo show in a museum again, but that experience was really profound for me.

Jen Hatmaker: Amazing.

Lisa Congdon: And something I will never forget.

Jen Hatmaker: Gosh, what a great answer. How fantastic.

Yeah. That’s like a lifetime achievement moment for sure. I love it.

Thanks for being here today. Thank you for just your candor and just how open you are to hope and possibility to art and creation. These are the things that are going to carry us through. They’re the things that always have. And so this is just our generation’s turn to demonstrate them and to embody them.

Lisa Congdon: Thank you. I can retire now.

Jen Hatmaker: It’s so fun to watch good people succeed. I just can’t think of anything I love better. It’s so exciting to see. I just, I’m filled with joy that the world is still getting enough right to see good people just continue to rise. And so thanks for being on today.

Anytime you’re in Austin, we’re here. We’re your girls. We know where to eat.

Lisa Congdon: I’ll definitely let you know the next time I’m in Austin and thank you so much for having me it’s been an absolute pleasure. Yes, thank you.

Jen Hatmaker: Absolutely. It’s so good to talk to you. Thank you.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

Find Your Artistic Voice: The Essential Guide to Working Your Creative Magic by Lisa Congdon

Art, Inc.: The Essential Guide for Building Your Career as an Artist by Lisa Congdon

The Live Your Values Deck

Lisa Congdon’s St. Mary’s College Exhibit

Corita Kent