Laughter, Our Escape Hatch from the Dumpster Fire: Live with The Popcast’s Knox McCoy & Jamie Golden

Jen:  I would love to hear you guys talk about—Jamie and I did a panel together at a blog conference, I mean technically…

Jamie: Yeah, no, it was.

Jen: …it was technically a blog conference. Even last year, in 2018, the Year of our Lord, those are still happening, but now it’s mostly influencers. It’s on the coattails of a long term blog conference, but now everybody just has beauty YouTube channels.

So we’re there, and we did a panel on podcasts, and I loved hearing you talk, Jamie, because she’s not just a pretty face. You guys went for this stuff. You quit your jobs. You bet on yourselves. You figured out a business that was still really kind of young and undeveloped, so we’re all just throwing stuff against the wall. We don’t know if our podcasts are going to work.

So I would love to hear you talk about that decision and what it was like, the risks that you took, what you learned through that, because you’re building a little empire on things that don’t matter, and I respect it.

Knox: Yeah, I think we got to a point where we were like, “This is fun. I think this is good.” We both have other jobs. Jamie had a whole Paul on the Damascus Road [moment], like, God told her to quit her job.

Jen: Oh yeah, I love that story.

Knox: That was just a side to that. We got to the point of, like, if this is going to be a thing, we’ve got to treat it and take it seriously. So we set some goals, we hit those goals. You know, it’s almost like we’ve had tiers, and the first one was, Can you do it consistently? And then it was, You need to quit your job. I was writing bad Christian screenplays for an online company, and I was looking for a reason to quit. I was like, I think God said something. I’ll go with it, like we’ll figure it out.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.

Knox: I heard an echo. Let’s go forward. Last summer was the big we’re having some success, forward momentum [moment], and it was like if we’re really going to take this to the next level, I need to move. Let’s make this serious. Let’s get an office. Let’s do a white board thing, whatever, spreadsheets, et cetera.

Jamie: And see, I’m an Enneagram seven, so when he was like, “I’m going to move there,” I was like, “Whoa.” Commitment is not my gifting, and he was like, “We’ve been doing this for five years,” and I was like, “But it’s still new.”

Knox: She’s like, “Don’t box me in, though. I don’t know.”

Jamie: Like, “Don’t trap me here.” But I like that, because we treated it like it was a job before it was our full-time job, and that was hard because that meant a lot of hours and a lot of work and a lot of early mornings. I’ve just woken up, I’m in pajamas, we’re Skyping, we’re on Google Hangout doing these recordings. But I think that’s the key with any side gig that becomes a main gig, is that you have to treat it as your main gig, even though that’s really, really hard when you’re starting out. Because then, eventually, all of that hard work can lead to more hard work and more even longer hours, but it’s the only thing you’re doing now. You’re not having to write the screenplays.

I was working with sweet adoptive families. It was just great work, but I didn’t have really great insurance, and now, I can go to the eye doctor and it’s amazing.

Jen: Yay.

Jamie: Yeah.

Knox: And now we really still don’t have great insurance, but…

Jamie: No, but I can afford better insurance.

Jen: Yes, exactly.

Jamie: Thank you, Obama!

Jen: Listen, ride that tail all the way to the eye doctor.

Jamie: That’s right.

Jen: Yeah, you can get adult braces if you want to.

Jamie: Oh my gosh. That’s next. That’s next.

Jen: So did you have to sort of re-tool the way that you approached work in general? Because this is a different kind of job. It’s not like the kind of job that either of you had, where you go to a place and you do the thing. Do you do office hours? How in are you here?

Jamie: Our COO is here, and I already know Erin is like, “They do not. Yeah, they do not do office hours.”

Jen: Yeah, where’s Erin? There she is. Yeah, big shout out to Erin, because she is a mega-player in The Popcast world. Thank you for all you do.

Jamie: I know. She’s fantastic.

Jen: You do all kinds of stuff, girl. Let’s talk about pop culture, because some people—I’m guessing nobody in this room—think that pop culture is just a throw away thing, right? Why build a career around it? Here today, gone tomorrow, everything’s out of the news cycle immediately. You do have to move fast, you two, for sure. But why do you think pop culture is fun? Why do you think it matters? Why do you think it keeps working because it is? Why does this keep landing for people?

Knox: I think it’s like you said, there’s been this historical bad branding with it, so for any time we engage with it, we think, This is bad, this is trashy. There are components of pop culture that really are [trashy], but to me, it’s a language of the people, and we all like to pretend that we’re fluent in the Apocrypha, and we should talk about that, but we’re not. We’re fluent in Friday Night Lights Season Two.

Jamie: Straight up.

Jen: Yeah we are.

Jamie: So scary.

Knox: Why don’t we talk about why Landry could’ve never landed Tyra? We all know that’s true, right? So it’s like it’s a thing where people connect.

Jamie: And why did they murder people? Why did they murder people?

Knox: Well, because he was a bad guy right? That made sense. Not.

Jamie: Oh yeah, that’s right. No, that’s true.

Knox: But I think it gets a bad rap, because it deals in the secular, and I think you can’t make the leap of, Well, if it’s secular, well, God cannot be there, right? But it’s like, No, you’re talking about God, so He can be wherever He wants.

Jamie: That’s right. God’s not dead.

Jen: That’s what they say.

Jamie: God’s not dead.

Knox: That should be a movie.

Jen: Be a bestselling book or something.

Jamie: And I think for us, the kind thing that our audience has done—because there was still a part of me for a long time who was like, Oh no, no, no, you have to be in ministry. You have to go work for a church, or you have to go back to the nonprofit with the adoptive family. That’s the only place you can really do legacy work. And then what was happening was our listeners would—very kindly and unsolicited—send us messages and say, “I’ve had the worst week, and just listening to you say phrases from Urban Dictionary has been a way to lighten my load.” And we were like, “Oh, so this can be something different. When the world’s a dumpster fire, we can be an hour where you get to escape the dumpster fire.”

Jen: Yes.

Knox: If you’ve listened to us, you’ve heard it before, we’ve said our big thing is humor breaks down walls so truth can enter. So you can laugh, we can have a good time, and then, there’s a trust. There’s an equity there, where if we have something we really care about and feel strongly about, you’ll hear it, and you won’t be dismissive of it. There can be an actual conversation there.

Jen: I remember early on in my career when—I have always loved humor, loved it like you guys, even a student of it. [When I was growing up], my classroom was SNL. That’s where I learned timing and comedy and physical comedy, just all of it, and have always been so drawn to it. And then when I steered the ship into ministry waters, the service waters, I remember thinking, because I always liked to be funny, What a throw away quality. In fact, it’s kind of an impediment that all my colleagues can come into a room and really be taken seriously, because they know about the Apocrypha, and I’m wanting to tell real, real dumb jokes. I’m wanting to do monologues. I’m wanting to never exaggerate any stories but just tell it as they are, as they happened.

It took me a while to figure out, Wait, humor counts, and it serves people, too. And if we have to only be serious and sober-minded all the time, I just want to be taken out.

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: No, exactly.

Jen: I’ve lived forty-five years. That’s enough.

Knox: Just put it down.

Jen: Just put it down. I don’t find that at all. I find that especially now, when the world is just a pile of diapers, right?

Knox: Yeah, on fire.

Jen: It’s burning.

Knox: Also on fire, yeah.

Jen: It’s also on fire. I think humor has even a more prominent place right now as a balm, as a relief, as a release, in every possible way. So I love what you do, and I think it absolutely matters and counts. Don’t listen to what your haters say. You don’t have any haters. I just said that.

Jamie: Oh no, they’re there.

Knox: Oh, we got them.

Jamie: Meghan is out that.

Jen: Meghan.

Knox: Chad and Brad are out there.

Jen: Why is it always Meghan?

Jamie: Chad and Brad and Meghan, always waiting.

Knox: It’s okay.

Jamie: Always mad.

Jen: They’ve got thoughts, man.

Jamie: They have so many feelings, and an iPhone. It’s true.

Jen: Yeah, I believe they’re in my DMs.

So every week on the show, you guys give what you call green lights, which are your stamps of approval on a movie, on a TV show, a human person, whatever it may be. So I would like to hear a handful of your green lights of late. What are you saying yes to? And then, this is a big question, but we’re almost at the end of the year. If you had to pick your best green light for 2019, the one you were like, “This is my offering to the people, let them get their money’s worth,” what would you put into their lives? Okay, how about you go first, Knox?

Knox: Okay. I’ll say the book is The Dearly Beloved. It’s one of my favorite things I’ve read all year. It was sent to us by a friend, Annie B. Jones, by the Bookshelf in Thomasville. I think she’s here.

Jen: Did you write it? Oh, you just sent it?

Jamie: She owns an independent bookstore in Thomasville, Georgia.

Jen: That is cute.

Jamie: Isn’t that cute?

Knox: It’s the most impossibly cool bookstore.

Jen: Do you carry any Jen Hatmaker books? I’m just asking for a friend.

Jamie: Yes.

Knox: It talks about two couples, the men are ministers. They’re co-ministers, and it deals with faith and doubt and questions and sorrow. It’s really, really good. My favorite thing of the whole year, and I want you to tell me if you’ve seen it, and this is for the future of our friendship, this is important how you answer, it’s The Peanut Butter freakin Falcon.

Jen: I have it. I bought it.

Knox: Did you really?

Jamie: Okay, good.

Jen: Yes.

Knox: I’m a big Shia LaBeouf fan.

Jamie: What?

Knox: I know. Big news, spicy take, but it’s just the sweetest, coolest movie.

Jamie: It’s wholesome.

Knox: If you would’ve told me there was going to be a movie about an aspirational pro wrestler and you would cry in it, I’d be like, “I don’t know,” but I did. But I did. It’s good.

Jen: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: That’s good. Okay, my book would be Recursion by Blake Crouch. It’s very sci-fi, creepy, weird. There are some sessy times in it, so I love that. That book is fantastic. It’s being adapted into a movie, so it’s very cinematic in nature. My favorite TV show would be the second season of Fleabag. Have you seen it?

Jen: Oh, so fabulous.

Jamie: And the second season. Skip the first.

Jen: Like a real marvel.

Jamie: Yeah, yes, the real marvel. Don’t watch the first season, and I know that some of you are like, “I’m an Enneagram 1, so I am going to have to watch that, like I am going to have to do it.” But find it within you to skip it. The Hot Priest is everything you’ve dreamed of, everything you’ve dreamed of. Sessy times in that, too. And then, my movie would be, no, I want one with sessy times. Let’s see. No, I’ll go purist this time.

Jen: Okay, all right.

Jamie: But I would say my favorite movie this year was The Farewell, which was a story about a woman whose grandmother has cancer, but no one has told her that she has cancer. And so she heads back home for a wedding, and all the family is trying to trick and making sure she doesn’t know she has cancer, because it’s one last family wedding, it’s one last family experience. It was a This American Life episode, true story. It’s a great movie, and what’s so great is they were like, “She only has three months to live.” They have this magical time, and to this day, she’s still living.

Jen: This is true?

Jamie: It’s a true story, yeah.

Jen: I’m shook.

Jamie: It’s the context of is it better to know? Is it better not to know? It’s a beautiful family movie. There’s no sessy time unfortunately, but it’s fantastic.

Knox: Not a sexy topic, so that’s a tough one.

Jamie: No.

Jen: It’s not. What’s it called again?

Jamie: The Farewell.

Jen: Okay.

Knox: It played in the south for thirty minutes and it was gone.

Jamie: Yeah, I saw it that one time.

Knox: You’re going to have to dig in on that one.

Jen: Okay, so I am thrilled. I know that you are thrilled. We are coming up upon our most hallowed time of the year, sacred—I feel like I’m comfortable saying sacred.

Knox: Yes, you should be.

Jen: You know, Oscars season.

Jamie: Oh my gosh.

Knox: Of course.

Jen: TV and awards season.

Jamie: You guys.

Jen: I’m interested in your takes. I’m interested. What are you looking forward to? What are your predictions?

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jen: Who are you here for? Who are you not here for?

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Okay.

Jen: Just let us have it. You are a portal into the things to care and not care about.

Jamie: Yeah, so I am just going to be at the theater three times a week. It’s my favorite time of year, just with popcorn and sitting there and every trailer and going to get more popcorn and more butter. I love it.

Jen: I do, too.

Jamie: Obviously coming up, just this month alone, we have some really great movies coming out. We have the fantastic Won’t You Be My Neighbor.

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: Beautiful Day.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: So I’m excited about that, even though it’s Tom Hanks, and I have conflicted feelings about Tom Hanks.

Jen: Oh, I don’t want to hear that.

Jamie: I know. I know. No one does.

Jen: I don’t want to hear that.

Jamie: No one ever does.

Knox: Tom Hanks, an actor…

Jen: I’m going to edit that out if you say it.

Knox: Listen.

Jamie: We deleted the Hanksgiving episode that we did one year.

Jen: You deleted it?

Jamie: We deleted it. It’s fine.

Jen: Because of the hate it gave you?

Jamie: So many people.

Knox: It was just us screaming at each other for sixty minutes, because she said things like, “I don’t know. Drew Barrymore is better than Tom Hanks.”

Jen: I don’t…that doesn’t make sense.

Knox: How do you reason with that?

Jen: That doesn’t make sense.

Jamie: She’s talented. That’s fine.

Jen: Okay.

Jamie: And then I’m most excited this fall for Little Women, the remake of Little Women.

Jen: Oh yes. Oh, that’s good.

Jamie: With Saoirse Ronan.

Jen: Amazing cast with Saoirse, yes.

Jamie: Saoirse and Timothée Chalomet. We’re very excited about him, because he’s sexy for someone who’s so frail.

Jen: Oh, hmm. Yeah.

Jamie: I loved him as Laurie, so that’s what I’m looking forward to the most.

Knox: I think 1917 is coming out. That looks really good. It’s like British war stuff, whatever. It’s fine. It’s going to be good.

Jamie: Whatever.

Knox: Yeah, that nailed that. Ford vs. Ferrari I think is good. This isn’t going to be good, but I’m fascinated to see it, Cats. Have you seen the trailer?

Jamie: You are not?

Jen: It scared me.

Jamie: No.

Knox: Right?

Jen: I had a nightmare.

Jamie: Rebel Wilson as a cat, it’s just a situation.

Jen: I don’t know.

Knox: Do you remember The Ring when you watch a video and you die seven days later? I feel like that’s Cats.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jen: Yes.

Knox: After you see that movie, you die seven days later.

Jen: Yes. I’m not saying you’re wrong.

Jamie: Yeah. And then it’s The Popcast with Jamie and Jen. Congratulations.

Knox: That was quick.

Jen: I’m here to step in.

Knox: Wow. Okay.

Jamie: Sorry.

Jen: We miss you.

Jamie: We can’t mourn forever.

Jen: Yeah, right. We’ve got to pay Erin’s salary.

Jamie: That’s right.

Knox: Got to move, yeah.

Jen: For crying out loud. Yes, yes, these are good takes. I like it.

Jamie: I know. I think the Oscars, I think Shia LaBeouf, he has a movie coming out, Honey Boy, that he wrote and directed and stars in, and it’s about his own father. Lucas Hedges plays Shia LaBeouf as a child, so I’m really interested to see, I think he will get a lot of Oscar buzz. We both just saw Parasite.

Jen: I didn’t see that.

Knox: Right.

Jamie: It’s a Korean foreign film. It just came out. It is bonkers good.

Jen: Really?

Jamie: And I don’t even like to read my movies. I do not like subtitles, and it was so fantastic.

Knox: Yeah, all subtitles. I’m trying to think, because I think Honey Boy will get some Oscar buzz. I think Peanut Butter Falcon will. I really do. This is the year that they’re talking about End Game maybe getting some Oscar buzz.

Jamie: Yeah, that we’d actually get a superhero film…

Knox: Maybe.

Jamie: …in the mix.

Knox: We’ll see.

Jen: Okay, this is an important question. This is important to me, also potentially indicative of a future friendship, so consider your words is all I’m saying.

Knox: Right, okay, sure, yes.

Jen: I don’t know if you don’t know this about me, but I am not sorry—I’m zero percent apologetic—100 percent devoted to every one of them, the Lifetime and Hallmark Christmas Movies, every one of them.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: All. Zero impunity, everybody gets in the pool.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Okay.

Jen: I would make an hour and a half or any one of them. I’m interested in you applying your creative mindset. You’re both really, really smart and kind of mean.

Knox: Okay. I’ll take that as a compliment. Thank you.

Jamie: Yeah. Thank you so much.

Jen: Yeah, no, I meant that. Yeah.

Jamie: That’s so sweet.

Jen: If you could design and cast a Hallmark Movie, who would be in it, your dream cast? Why did they make the cut? And what’s the trouble? Is it the local inn? Is it the bakery?

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jen: Is it a condo developer coming in?

Jamie: Right. Yeah.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: So do you understand Hallmark movies?

Knox: Well, let me ask this, because I want to understand. I want to get in your world.

Jen: Okay, I’m here. I can be your tutor.

Jamie: Listen. Right.

Knox: So help me understand the text a little bit.

Jamie: So there’s a woman.

Jen: Okay, yeah.

Jamie: She’s from a big urban area.

Jen: Virtually always New York City.

Jamie: New York City. She works on Wall Street.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: Because she’s smart and blonde.

Jen: Yeah.

Knox: Wears a lot of black, probably.

Jamie: Right, she is serious about her job.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: She’s about to make partner.

Knox: Oh.

Jen: That’s important.

Jamie: That’s exactly right.

Knox: Gosh.

Jen: She’s so close.

Jamie: She’s so close.

Knox: Let me ask, is that the name, About to Make Partner?

Jen: It could be.

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: It hinges on a presentation.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: And then she’s going to have to go back to her hometown.

Jen: That’s right.

Knox: Which is where?

Jamie: That’s either a farm or a Main Street. Those are the two options.

Jen: Yes. It’s probably in Vermont.

Jamie: It’s in Vermont.

Jen: Yeah.

Jamie: And then there’s a guy who didn’t graduate from high school.

Jen: Yeah.

Audience: *Laughs*

Knox: Because he’s dumb?

Jamie: She has an MBA from Harvard.

Jen: She does.

Jamie: No, not because he’s dumb, because he just cares so much about the community.

Jen: He took on his dad’s local hardware store.

Jamie: That’s right.

Knox: That’s it, and now he makes sand glass from lightning striking the beach kind of stuff?

Jamie: Yeah.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: It’s just like Sweet Home Alabama.

Knox: No, I got it. I think I got it now.

Jen: That’s it.

Jamie: That’s right.

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: That’s the movie.

Jen: He’s spectacularly beautiful and every single boy character looks identical. They’re all the same person.

Knox: You’re right.

Jen: He’s a little gruffy.

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: With a sweater, and that’s the end of it.

Jamie: He always stops for pets. He always stops for children, and he gets down on their level.

Jen: He does.

Knox: That’s how you know they love him.

Jen: Yeah, he does that. That’s important to know that. And also, when it comes to children, he is raising his niece alone.

Knox: Oh my gosh.

Jamie: Yeah.

Jen: His sister died.

Jamie: Not because she’s abusive or neglectful.

Jen: No, no, she died. She died of a stroke early.

Knox: Early? Early stroke, that’s a tough one.

Jamie: Early strokes are the worst.

Jen: Nobody saw it coming, but he is raising her daughter who’s seven and precocious.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Okay?

Jamie: So there’ll be a scene where they go to her grave.

Jen: Yeah. That’s right.

Jamie: Yeah, there’ll be a scene where they go to her grave.

Knox: Okay, who is the guy from This is Us, the not good actor on This is Us?

Jen: I’m not interested in this take.

Jamie: Oh, I’m sorry. It’s Justin Hartley.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Yeah, that’s right.

Jamie: He plays Kevin.

Knox: Okay, that’s the guy.

Jamie: That is the guy.

Jen: That’s the guy. Yeah.

Knox: That’s good? Okay.

Jen: That’s one hundred percent the guy.

Knox: High-powered lawyer who is one presentation away from making partner.

Jen: That’s right.

Knox: I’m thinking Gretchen Wieners, from Mean Girls.

Jamie: Oh, Lacey Chabert.

Jen: Oh, that’s good.

Jamie: She’s all right.

Knox: Whose father was the inventor of toaster strudels, don’t forget.

Jamie: Toaster strudels. Yes, she’s already been in Hallmark movies, too.

Jen: I’m sure she has.

Jamie: She has experience.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: That’s the other thing. Actors can’t be in Hallmark movies if they’ve won an award for acting.

Jen: I think it’s written in the contract.

Jamie: That’s right. You know it.

Jen: It’s written in the contract.

Jamie: In your heart, you know that I’m right about that.

Jen: Yeah.

Knox: Are Hallmark movies like the Dancing with the Stars of movies?

Jamie: Yeah, I feel like Dancing with the Stars is too nice.

Knox: Too nice?

Jen: Yeah.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: It’s too nice.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: I feel like the people who are in Hallmark movies are all, like, Margot Robbie‘s sister.

Jen: Uh-huh, yeah, or it was a former member of the cast of Full House.

Jamie: Yes.

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: Any one of them.

Jamie: Yeah, any of them.

Jen: Any one of them.

Knox: Who was not problematic, whatever.

Jen: No. No.

Jamie: No, none of them. Aunt Becky’s fine.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: When she gets out of prison, she can come back. She can make a comeback.

Jen: She’s going to rebound.

Knox: It’ll be good for her.

Jen: She’s going to rebound.

Knox: She can play herself in the movie, the Hallmark movie.

Jen: She could. That’s good. Now you’re on.

Knox: We’ll call it The Hard Evidence.

Jamie: The Hard Evidence.

Jen: Yes, also, if you’re lucky, there’s a Santa Claus character.

Jamie: Oh yes.

Jen: It’s a Santa Claus prototype.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Sometimes it’s actually Santa.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Sometimes it’s Santa-like.

Jamie: So it’s Wilford Brimley, who’s just the uncle that’s wise.

Jen: Yes. Exactly.

Jamie: But retired.

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: And just likes to fish.

Jen: Yes.

Knox: But he doesn’t have diabeetus in this situation? Okay.

Jamie: No, he’s maintained his sugars. He’s done good.

Jen: Yeah he has. He really has. Do we have any titles? Can we float any?

Jamie: Well, it always has to be either the name of a song or a name of a movie that they just tweaked. So it’s like Beauty and the Feast.

Jen: Oh yeah.

Jamie: Because it’s about a caterer.

Jen: Yeah, yeah.

Jamie: You know?

Jen: Murder She Baked. Yes.

Jamie: Yes, that’s exactly right. No, that’s a perfect name.

Jen: Yeah, exactly.

Jamie: I just think it’s so amazing that we are just like, “Ohhhh, I’m so excited.”

Jen: Yeah.

Jamie: We’re like, “You know what, I want to watch thirty-eight bad movies.”

Knox: Yeah.

Jen: That’s right.

Jamie: It’ll be under my weighted blanket.

Jen: I have not one, not two, but three adult sleepovers planned for that activity alone.

Knox: That’s fantastic.

Jamie: Gosh, that’s magical.

Jen: Three.

Knox: That’s really committed.

Jen: Yeah.

Jamie: That’s magical.

Jen: Thank you.

Knox: Good for you.

Jen: I’m winning. Thank you.

Jamie: Yes, what an honor to be your friend. So good.

Jen: Yes, I knew that you would see it that way.

Jen:  Okay, so let’s see. We have wrapped up a lot of important business, obviously. I hope that you feel edified and really enlightened, but I would like to do a little rapid fire.

Jamie: Okay.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Okay. I don’t know if this is universal.

Jamie: Okay. No, it is.

Jen: Could you follow?

Jamie: I didn’t know if we needed to do jazz and then a dance.

Knox: Some jazz, yeah do a little riff.

Jen: Foxy.

Jamie: I was ready.

Jen: Yes. Okay, here’s the first one, I’m interested in hearing what either song or artist or album you have on repeat right now, that you love. Like, I’m wearing everybody out with this. I did that, for example, a couple years ago. I went to the CMAs, and that was the first time I ever saw Chris Stapleton. Remember when he performed with Justin Timberlake?

Jamie: Yes.

Knox: Oh yeah.

Jamie: He’s so good.

Jen: Do you remember that? I almost lost consciousness. I then listened to Chris Stapleton for one solid year with no nuance.

Jamie: No break.

Knox: No breaks, yeah.

Jen: Yeah. No breaks. Do you have anything like that that you’re like, “I’m loving this right now?”

Jamie: I get that way, where I [just repeat things] over and over again. I will not be ashamed for loving Taylor Swift, and I love Lover. I love Lover on a repeat. I picture myself in that manic pixie daydream that she lives, and so, I love that. I also love a band called Penny and Sparrow.

Jen: Oh yeah.

Knox: I will say, this isn’t new, but I’ve been listening to a lot of Andrew Bird. I really like Andrew Bird, Frank Ocean. I’m in a Frank Ocean phase right now. I really like Frank Ocean.

Jen: Oh nice, yes.

Knox: On our way, when we do live shows, we have a habit of listening exclusively to Kanye songs.

Jen: Just to fire you up?

Knox: Just to fire [us up].

Jamie: Not the Jesus stuff.

Knox: No, not the Jesus stuff.

Jen: Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.

Knox: Not the Jesus stuff.

Jamie: No.

Jen: Yeah, the dirty stuff.

Jamie: Right, right.

Knox: A lot of bad, white people rapping.

Jamie: “Stronger,” “Power,” “All the Lights.”

Knox: Yeah, really good.

Jen: I like that. That’s good hype music. Okay, this is so in your wheelhouse. What’s the last TV show or series that you binged, that you powered through like a real champion?

Knox: I caught up on The Good Place, and I really like it.

Jen: Oh yeah, it’s so cute.

Knox: I’m doing The Morning Show right now, Apple TV+.

Jen: Oh, I haven’t started that yet. Are any of y’all watching that?

Knox: Yeah. It’s like everyone agrees that it’s probably not great, but it’s fun to watch a weird wreck of stuff happening. You know?

Jen: Okay. Yeah.

Jamie: I just don’t understand why Reese Witherspoon can be from the South and have a horrible southern accent. Because she’s Bradley Whitford, justice, blah blah blah.

Knox: Look, it is a lot of…

Jamie: I don’t understand what she’s doing.

Knox: It’s Reese screaming at people, which is my love language.

Jen: Okay. Oh, that moves you?

Knox: It does.

Jen: Okay.

Knox: In an emotional way, not inappropriate like Jamie.

Jen: Okay. Yeah.

Jamie: My favorite thing that I’ve binged recently are two things that are very different. One is Succession, on HBO. I loved Succession. It ticked all the boxes of crazies, and I love that Kieran Culkin, Macaulay’s younger brother, could have a comeback like this. It’s really good.

Knox: So good.

Jamie: It’s a fantastic one. It’s NSFJM—Not Suitable for Jamie’s Mom—because she’s dainty.

Jen: Okay, yeah.

Jamie: And then Derry Girls.

Jen: Oh, it’s precious.

Jamie: Gosh, such a good show.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: We did try it back stage. We were like, “We get to talk about Derry Girls.” I was like, “I wonder if I could do an Irish accent?”

Jen: Let’s have a try.

Jamie: So we pulled up a video of Madeline, who is a vocal coach, who did a video on how to speak with an Irish accent.

Jen: You did a little tutorial back here?

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: We did.

Jen: Okay.

Jamie: So she was like, “Your i‘s…” In America, our i’s are like right, so i, and then in Ireland, they’re like, arghhh.

Knox: Do it confidently.

Jen: Yeah.

Jamie: (trying desperately hard to use an Irish accent) I’m from Ireland.

Knox: See I did it, and mine sounds like Merida from Brave.

Jamie: You do yours.

Knox: I was like, (also trying desperately hard to use an Irish accent . . . but it’s Scottish) “I’ll be shooting from me own hand!”

Jamie: That’s not good either.

Knox: That’s not Irish. That’s Scottish.

Jamie: We’re not great. I’m not great, but Derry Girls, if you have the closed captioning on, it’s so good.

Jen: Yes.

Jamie: Because you’re like, “Now I understand what they’re talking about.”

Jen: You have to have the closed caption on.

Jamie: And it has that sweet nineties soundtrack—Cranberries, Sarah McLachlan, so good.

Jen: Okay, those are awesome. By the way, my daughter, Sidney, listens to all that music. Do you know how young adults right now are really cool, where we were just basic? We were so basic at that age just listening to Top 40, and Sydney has a Cranberries playlist. She was born in the year 2000.

Knox: I listen to Hoobastank not ironically.

Jen: Yeah, that’s my point.

Knox: But they are ironically listening to it again.

Jamie: Sister Hazel was, like, my favorite band.

Jen: Yeah, exactly. It’s frustrating, actually, how sophisticated this generation is. They’re going to have so little to regret, and it upsets me.

Jamie: I know. Gosh, I have so many hairstyles to regret, so many fashion choices to regret, so many boys to regret.

Jen: Right, obviously, yes.

Jamie: Gosh.

Jen: Yes, I know.

Jamie: I’m jealous.

Jen: Okay, how about this? When you’re either having an awesome day or a terrible day, maybe this is the exact same answer, what’s the food you reach for? This is the food I want to make myself feel good in my heart?

Knox: I order a BLT—no L, no T, heavy on the B. And I do that, Jen, because unless you say it like that, they don’t think you’re serious about the B.

Jen: I for sure would not.

Knox: And you’re always serious about the B. Bacon sandwich.

Jamie: We need a shirt that says that: “Serious about the B.”

Knox: Always serious about the B, yeah.

Jen: I have a follow-up question.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: Because that feels upsetting. Is it on white bread? Surely.

Knox: It’s on sourdough with a little bit of olive oil, little bit of butter, put in the pan.

Jen: Yeah!

Knox: Yeah, yeah. That’s right. Don’t dismiss him.

Jen: A bacon sandwich.

Knox: No, a BLT—hold the L, hold the T.

Jamie: No, it’s a bacon sandwich.

Knox: No, not like that.

Jen: And your aversion to the L and the T is just simply that it’s just superfluous?

Knox: Gone. Yeah.

Jen: Okay, just we don’t have time for that.

Knox: Completely gone.

Jamie: Unnecessary. We don’t even need it. Yeah.

Knox: Erroneous.

Jamie: Okay, so I, as an Enneagram seven, comfort food is every meal. I eat what I want. But if I’m going to really have the bad day, I’m either going to get a milkshake—extra large, add that whip, hold that cherry. I don’t want any indication of fruit.

Jen: Sure. That’s not what you’re there for.

Jamie: I want it to be intense.

Knox: No.

Jamie: That’s right. Or I go to the local Mexican restaurant and I’m like, “I want a double portion of queso, double chips,” and they’re like, “Do you need two sets of silverware?” “No.”

Knox: No.

Jen: One.

Knox: Party of solo.

Jamie: Party of sadness, just me. And that is my legit favorite thing.

Jen: Texas does a thing with our queso in which we put in chorizo and tomatoes and avocado. What’s your take on that?

Jamie: Well, I do love yellow queso, which is famous in Texas.

Jen: Yes, I thought that’s all there was.

Jamie: No, I know. White queso, thin and runny.

Jen: Oh no, really?

Jamie: Just the saddest, where you can drink it like sweet tea. So good. Drink a little, put some chips in, drink a little.

Knox: Yeah, I want to dig into that.

Jamie: So good. When I was in Atlanta, when I was in college, our Thursday night was we would go to Rio Bravo.

Audience: *cheers*

Jamie: Yes.

Jen: Oh, mm-hmm. That keeps working.

Jamie: Yes, it does work.

Knox: Yeah, it does. So smart.

Jamie: We would order waters with lemon, and then we would add Sweet ‘N Low to make lemonade. They had fresh tortillas, so we would get $2.99 queso, which was unlimited, and then we would get seventy-five cent tortillas, and we’d just be like, “Keep bringing them, John!”

Knox: Yeah, another round of tortillas please.

Jamie: That’s right, and we’d share one big margarita.

Jen: You gamed that system. John loved you guys. I bet they fought for your table.

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: Oh gosh, we tipped John so generously. We probably were the worst and left him a tract and $1.

Jen: Oh, I want to believe that’s not true.

Jamie: It’s like $2, John, eternity.

Knox: But an eternal life, yeah. Here’s the Romans Road, John.

Jamie: Right.

Jen: Okay, when you think specifically about the work that you are doing, do you have a person that—I don’t know if it’s necessarily that you aspire to be like this person, but they’re something of a north star—like, “This is somebody, I’m watching their career, I’m watching their style, I like the way they’re doing this, I like the way they’re moving about their work in the world” that either of you are looking at?

Knox: I live my life like WWSLB? What would Shia LaBeouf do? So that’s a big one for me.

Jen: Oh, that was real. Yeah.

Knox: It’s really authentic. Love his vibe. Professionally, since it’s a weird space, you don’t have a lot of territory forged, so it’s hard to know who to replicate.

Jen: Uh-huh, that’s true, actually.

Knox: I don’t know if you’re familiar with Bill Simmons, he does The Ringer Podcast Network.

Jen: Uh-huh.

Knox: I’ve followed him for eighteen years.

Jen: Wow.

Knox: He’s a writer. He writes books, writes content online, does podcasts, does videos. I love that. I love being able to do all those different things.

Jen: Yeah, that’s a great answer.

Jamie: For me, my heart’s mentor is Ursula from The Little Mermaid.

Knox: Right.

Jen: Is that right?

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: Because I would never pick Ariel. She’s a garbage princess who gave up her voice for a man who played the flute. Get out of here. I’m not doing that.

Knox: A man who played the flute who had a sheep dog.

Jamie: No.

Knox: In a coastal town. I didn’t see a herd. What’s happening here?

Jamie: Why do you have a sheep dog?

Knox: Doesn’t make sense.

Jen: No.

Jamie: But I like her. She’s confident. She wears that lipstick like she’s a boss.

Jen: She did.

Jamie: She understands contracts.

Jen: Oh, yeah.

Jamie: She makes them. She does business.

Knox: All about that paperwork.

Jamie: And you know what it took to kill her? A ship.

Knox: A boat.

Jamie: Right in here.

Jen: That’s true.

Jamie: That’s what I want to aspire to. You just do your business, you don’t care what people think. You try to entertain. You try to sing well, if you will.

Jen: She could sing.

Jamie: She could sing like a boss, and I just think she saw that redhead and was like, “Cold, dead heart. Gotta get rid of her.”

Jen: Okay.

Knox: I like if your enemies want to kill you, it’s going to take an aircraft carrier. I like that energy.

Jen: Yeah, I do too.

Jamie: That’s right. Meghan can’t kill me in the DMs.

Jen: Meghan.

Jamie: You better bring a ship, Meghan.

Jen: We eat Meghans for breakfast.

Jamie: That’s exactly right.

Jen: Okay, we’ve got one last question, so get your questions ready because it’s about to be your turn. You guys have already answered this for me the first time you were on the show, but this is what we ask everybody, of course, and it can be whatever you want. You can answer this however.

Knox: Okay.

Jen: What’s saving your life right now?

Knox: I would say two things. Number one, watching the University of Texas struggle to beat bad college football teams.

Jen: That’s not nice.

Jamie: That seems so aggressive.

Knox: Listen, I like that it was like, “Texas is back.”

Jen: That was so weirdly specific and awful. Yes.

Jamie: I feel like you came for her specifically.

Knox: I’m sorry. I’m sorry. I’ll say AirPods, because I can put them in and not listen to anything, but no one will approach me.

Jen: Right. This is the truest…

Knox: Yeah, next level.

Jen: I just forgave you.

Knox: Galaxy brain, yeah.

Jen: I just forgave you for that…

Knox: Thank you.

Jen: …very demonic thing you said about the University of Texas.

Jamie: I am aging, and I don’t like it. So I care a lot about skincare, because I’m on a Nana Plan 2020. I’m trying to meet a grandfather and hook up.

Jen: Oh.

Knox: You want to explain that a little more for people?

Jamie: Nana Plan 2020 is just to meet a grandfather, be a nana to the grandchildren, but his wife is dead because she had one of them strokes early.

Knox: Yeah, an early stroke.

Jen: Early.

Jamie: Early stroke.

Knox: Gah.

Jamie: That’s right. But one of the things about aging is eventually—I don’t know if you’ve experienced this—I have always slept on my stomach, and now when I wake up, there are lines all across my face that do not bounce back quickly.

Jen: They don’t. It takes a minute.

Jamie: It takes a hot minute, and so, I’ve been sleep training at age forty-four.

Jen: Whoa.

Jamie: Like a baby. Y’all, I got this pregnancy pillow.

Knox: Wow, a lot of happening here.

Jen: This is a lot of information.

Jamie: Y’all, it’s like a velvet U-shape. And look, I am on my back now. It’s like nope, my pregnant sleep pillow has solved all my problems, and I didn’t have to have a baby.

Jen: Bonus.

Jamie: Bonus. Yes.

Jen: You are telling me that you went to all that effort and energy for vanity, is what you’re saying?

Jamie: Oh, a hundred percent.

Jen: Yeah, okay. I respect it.

Jamie: Yeah, no. I do everything for vanity.

Jen: Okay, good.

Jamie: That’s my mission in life.

Jen: Okay.

Jamie: You know how other people are like, “the gospel and poverty?” Vanity.

Jen: Okay. All right. We’ll just know where we stand with you. That’s all. It’s fair. Just telling your truth.

Jamie: Telling my truth and sharing it with all of you.

Knox: That’s right.

Jamie: So, go get you a pregnancy pillow, and you can sleep train as well.

Jen: Okay. So, first of all, we reserve the right to not answer any questions that you ask.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Oh, okay.

Jen: We do.

Knox: I like that.

Jen: We reserve the right to be like, “Pass.” If you behave, we are very interested in answering anything you want to know, so come at us. Hi.

Question Asker #1: Hi. Oh, is it working? Can you hear me?

Jen: There it is.

Question Asker #1: Okay. I’m so excited y’all are here. This is so great. I’ve been thinking about this the whole time, I’m sweating so hard right now as it is freezing here. Okay. Thoughts on this, you’re invited, all three of you, here’s a question to think about.

Knox: Okay.

Question Asker #1: You have been invited to an old-fashioned potluck at a church. You are there to impress. What is the meal that you’re bringing?

Jen: It’s important. This is important.

Jamie: It is important.

Jen: Yeah.

Jamie: So I’m going to bring something from a restaurant.

Jen: That feels right.

Jamie: But I’m going to put it in a ceramic dish with a JBG on it.

Question Asker #1: Of course.

Knox: Yeah.

Question Asker #1: That’s how you do it.

Jamie: Kind of mess it up a little bit. Yeah, because that’s how you bring your A game, is let other people do it.

Jen: Yeah, that feels right.

Knox: That’s good.

Jen: That feels right.

Jamie: Yeah.

Knox: What you have described sounds like a very social situation with a lot of small talk, so I will be sick that day, and I will not be there. So that’s how we do that.

Jen: I’m going to reserve the right to have a little rotation of answers, and it’s going to involve a casserole dish. It’s going to involve butter, probably cheddar, maybe some sort of cream cheese.

Jamie: All the B.

Jen: On the top will be some combination of either crushed Ritz crackers or potentially crushed potato chips.

Jamie: Yes, Lord. Yes, Lord.

Knox: Yeah, let’s build that layer.

Jen: I’d like the option to play with that a bit, but it’s going to be around 1200 calories a slice.

Question Asker #1: Bring your stretchy pants, right?

Jen: Very loosely involved will be a vegetable, but it’s just…

Jamie: Like a potato.

Jen: Yeah, like a potato, right.

Knox: Chip, yeah.

Jen: So I hope you enjoy our potluck.

Jamie: Yes.

Question Asker #1: I’m excited. Thank y’all.

Jamie: Thank you.

Question Asker #2: Hello. Okay, so I love you guys a lot, even though you definitely sidestepped Season One of Fleabag, but I’m going to forgive you. It’s fine. We won’t talk about it.

Jen: Yep, there’s grace in the room.

Knox: Thank you.

Question Asker #2: Yeah, it’s okay. But I have a question. This is more of your process when you’re deciding what topic to cover. How would you go from Jamie’s Top Seventy-Five Red Shades of Sephora’s Lipsticks to Knox’s The Top Ten Tom Brady Smiles?

Knox: Okay.

Question Asker #2: How would you merge that into one topic for The Popcast?

Knox: Top Twenty.

Jen: First of all, a whiteboard is involved.

Knox: Obviously.

Question Asker #2: Yeah, obviously.

Jamie: You asked us. We didn’t say our one nice thing about each other, so I will say something nice about Knox now. Everybody pay attention.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: So Knox is a really good producer. He produces the show, and he makes the list, and he’s good at it.

Knox: Okay.

Jamie: Does that feel right? Is that what you told me to say?

Knox: That is the nicest thing you’ve ever said to me. Thank you.

Jamie: Is that what you told me to say?

Knox: Yeah.

Jamie: So he’s really good at—because listeners will send in topics all the time—taking that and going, “Okay, what can we do with that, can we not?” Or we see things in the news. For example, we have a new episode tomorrow, and our episode tomorrow—because our most downloaded episode of all time is The Enneagram—we talked about it in a really clinical, academic way. So tomorrow is Enneagram at the holidays and how you can deal with it at the holidays. So that was a way to go, “Okay, people like this. How can we use this again and talk about it in a different way?” So that’s how that works.

Knox: Yeah, and I think we kind of try to follow a certain formula of how we want to present a broad, accessible idea. We want to make it a little more intimate and weird, and then the third stage is, “Let’s get buck wild strange with this and have a lot of fun and take it in a direction you didn’t expect.” And that’s usually kind of how we orient our episodes.

Jen: Yeah, that was a great question.

Question Asker #2: Oh thank you.

Question Asker #3: So this is for Jen, although Knox and Jamie, I love you guys.

Jamie: Aww.

Knox: Thank you.

Question Asker #3: One of my very favorite things is when you get on Instagram and talk about all the crap you pulled out of your fridge for dinner.

Jen: Thank you.

Question Asker #3: My people have been fed on that for a very long time, so thank you.

Jen: You’re welcome.

Question Asker #3: Has anyone from any of those food networks approached you about a food show, and would you do it? I would watch it.

Jen: That’s cute. Thanks for saying that. Let’s just say…

Jamie: Uh oh.

Jen: Let’s just say that I’m just pulling some levers, and doing some things, and having some conversations.

Jamie: Uh oh, okay. Very fun.

Knox: Are we talking Murder She Baked up in this? Yeah. I like it.

Jen: Everyone’s just ripping it.

Jamie: Okay, all right.

Knox: Wow.

Jamie: You were testing it.

Question Asker #3: Murder She Roast.

Jamie: With a focus group. It’s pretty good.

Jen: Yeah, I loved food. This is why I started structuring this podcast—I love so many things, and it’s sincere. Like, everything. When I talk about food, it’s my favorite thing.

Question Asker #3: That’s obvious.

Jen: When I’m talking about Jesus, it’s my favorite thing. And I will talk about Matthew McConaughey 1997, it’s my favorite thing.

Question Asker #3: Yes, my favorite thing.

Jen: Right, so I like the freedom to be able to love what I love, whether it fits a thing or not. So I really sincerely love food, and so, we’ll just see about that. But thanks for asking.

Knox: That’s a really good question. Yeah.

Jamie: Oh, very interesting. We’ll spread that rumor. Let’s go. Let’s go.