Rethinking Influence: Malcolm Gladwell’s Insights on Major Cultural Trends
“As we examine how we’re influenced, it’s clear that the sources and individuals projecting influence in the world are getting smaller and smaller — which is weird, because we initially thought the opposite was happening.” – Malcolm Gladwell
Episode 08
This week Jen and Amy dive deep into the mind of bestselling author and one of the most influential thinkers of the 2000’s, Malcolm Gladwell. Exploring the intriguing concepts behind his latest book, The Revenge of the Tipping Point, the conversation ebbs and flows through Malcolm’s ability to turn dense data into compelling narratives, weaving stories that captivate readers in unexpected ways. Jen and Amy key into Malcolm’s knack for viewing problems from unique angles, a skill that sets him apart in academic and popular discourse.
Throughout the chat, Malcolm reveals how his perspectives have evolved over the last 25 years and how the nuances of today’s world demand a fresh interpretation of the ideas that he first introduced. Their discussion underscores the blend of rigorous analysis and storytelling magic that defines Malcolm’s work and leaves a lasting impact on listeners eager to engage with the pressing questions of our time. Malcolm gives us insight into all manner of cultural phenomena, including:
- A definition of “overstories” and how they can refine and deepen our understanding of the spread of customs, mores, and practices
- The advent of “superspreaders:” those very few people who have a large amount of influence, a situation which has shifted with the onset of social media
- Snippets of fascinating social observations, illustrated in stories from his book including a look at the opioid epidemic, the growing mental health issues of students, and the power of television shows like “Will & Grace,” toward creating massive cultural shifts
Jen: Everybody, welcome to the show.
Amy: Welcome! Jen: I’m not trying to exaggerate or sound like a broken record, but do we have a show for you today?
Amy: It just keeps coming.
Jen: I have a question. Let’s say maybe six weeks ago, the thought you were having in your head was, “What feels feasible and possible?” Would you have thought you’d be having an hour-long conversation with Malcolm Gladwell?
Amy: Thought? No, not even a little bit. If you had told me, I would have said, “You’re a dirty liar.”
Jen: Sure.
Amy: But here we are.
Jen: Here we are. Frankly, that thought wouldn’t have crossed my mind either, and I’ve had podcasts for seven years. So, this is a big, awesome, incredible conversation with one of our most prominent thinkers. Anyway, I didn’t sleep last night; you’ll hear more about that later. Malcolm is just a fascinating person. He’s both so smart that it’s almost embarrassing, and then…
Amy: Also warm and engaging. I don’t know how he threads that needle, but he does. He makes science and data interesting, engaging, fascinating, and, dare I say, cool.
Jen: Yes. I don’t know how he does it, but there’s a kindness to him as well.
Amy: I agree. He’s gifted in his ability to research and understand data, and he’s also a master storyteller. He’s honed his craft.
Jen: Yes, he has—his particular craft—for decades.
Amy: You’re right. He works so hard and yet has a humility and curiosity about him.
Jen: Yeah, I really… well, we’re going to get to it. Malcolm’s work has us thinking about how Gen X tackled some pretty big issues and brought them to our doorstep as we were coming of age, making them relatable or perhaps introducing them to us for the first time, handing us stories to consider or examine in a new way. So, let’s talk in this installment of GenXcellence.
Jen: Let me ask you first, was there a particular song from our coming of age that took a complex issue, idea, or tension point and distilled it down into something understandable, or brought it to your attention for the first time?
Amy: Well, yes! I have a hundred answers, but thinking back on our music and the stories we were told, the pushback against society and authority… I think the first one where I realized a song can clue you into something happening in society is Marvin Gaye’s What’s Going On? Oh, good one. I remember hearing it in different places, like at my piano recital at Trinity, or riding in the backseat of the car. I’d hear it and start to listen, realizing that huge things a kid could never understand could affect a single family in catastrophic ways. It made me aware that there are big, scary things out there that can walk in your front door.
Jen: Oh.
Amy: But I still didn’t understand the specific things the song was referring to.
Jen: Oh no, me neither. I only knew the chorus, and I didn’t really know what it meant.
Amy: But I think the first song I tied to a specific political or cultural event was Sunday Bloody Sunday.
Jen: Yeah, that was a good one.
Amy: I was in middle school.
Jen: What year did that come out?
Amy: I think I was in sixth grade—1983.
Jen: Right, 1983. Not exactly a chorus you sing along to without thinking. Those are some strong words. So, you know, I went to the encyclopedia.
Amy: Sure, that’s what we had! Jen: I asked questions like, “What’s he talking about?”
Amy: And I’m like, “Where’s Ireland?” That was my first introduction to U2 too.
Jen: Oh, yeah. I think there were a few other songs on that album that were also political and dark.
Amy: Yes. They’ve been doing that for decades.
Jen: Did I tell you that I saw them at The Sphere in Vegas?
Amy: What? I can’t even… I don’t even know how to talk about it. It was my second time seeing them in concert, and it’s kind of like going to a concert that feels a little like church.
Amy: Well, I think a lot of their concerts do have that feel. I just saw them when they redid Joshua Tree.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Amy: That was one of my kid’s very first concerts, and we thought, “Well, he’s ruined forever.”
Jen: Was it here in Austin?
Amy: No, in Dallas.
Jen: Oh, yeah.
Amy: But the Sphere…
Jen: I don’t even know what to say. Tyler and I went, and as we were coming out, we just kept looking at each other. We have so many words between us; we are verbose, but we were just stunned.
Jen: Like, “What?” Jen: It took 20 minutes before I could make a single comment about the whole show. Anyway, that was a good one. I would add that I wasn’t paying much attention to the world when I was a teen and even a young adult. My world was really small; I lived on the head of a needle and didn’t have a broader sense of things at all. When I was a senior in high school, R.E.M. came out with Losing My Religion. I remember thinking, “That’s me in the corner.” I didn’t know we could lose our religion or that we were allowed to have cognitive dissonance with it. I certainly didn’t think we were allowed to lose it! I just thought, “Well, REM needs to go to church. They need to go to Sunday school and find it again.” But that kind of song sticks in your craw.
Amy: It does. Did you keep listening to it, or were you like, “No, too much?”
Jen: For me, I couldn’t have identified it at the time, but clearly, I had some internal rumblings bubbling with questions. The cognitive dissonance was the hard part: this is what we believe, but my eyes were seeing so much harm from it. This is what I’ve been taught, but it doesn’t feel fair or good or just.
Amy: Or not true in my own body.
Jen: Exactly. My body was sending me messages, but I wasn’t raised in a community that could handle doubts or hard questions. Those were seen as a dereliction of faith. So anyway, when I heard Losing My Religion, I thought, “Well, I’m going to pray for them,” but I also wondered what that meant.
Amy: I do think music is uniquely positioned to take huge ideas and distill them down into a single chorus that alters your perception of the world.
Jen: You’re right. Music is incredibly powerful and has always carried subversive messaging and cultural ideas—way before our generation. That was still happening, at least on the margins, and now it’s found its way more to the center of the conversation. We could probably do this for a hundred years, going through the songs that have moved, changed, and challenged us. But what’s important is that we get to Malcolm Gladwell. How’d you sleep last night?
Amy: Besides being a little nervous, I guess I had a million things to think about from his book.
Jen: Just in case someone just moved here from a remote country, let me tell you about Malcolm. He’s been a mega influencer—not just on American culture, but on the world, changing our perspectives on human behavior for 30 years.
Amy: Yes.
Jen: This is what he’s known for. He has this amazing ability to transform complex, data-dense ideas into engaging stories. All of a sudden, you’re 20 pages in, wondering how you got so deep into the story of the Harvard women’s rugby team. He’s a prominent voice in discussions about everything from crime to education to sports to psychology. His focus seems to be challenging our understanding of human behavior and reexamining things we’ve either misunderstood or viewed from the wrong angle.
Amy: That’s his magic.
Jen: I was reading his book, just thinking, “How does he think? How does he do this? How does his brain know to ask the right questions?” To me, that’s fascinating. I see that I’m asking the questions everyone else is asking, while Malcolm’s over here playing chess while we’re playing checkers—coming at it from a different angle and drilling into the side door. That’s really the access to the idea. He’s done this through a bunch of New York Times bestsellers: The Tipping Point, Blink, Outliers, Talking to Strangers, and many more. He even has a podcast called Revisionist History, where he reexamines something from the past and asks whether we got it right the first time.
Amy: Interesting!
Jen: So today, we’re particularly going to talk about his newest book, which comes out October 1st. His team sent Amy and me a copy in advance, so we’ve read it, and it’s… well, just buzzy. It’s brain-buzzy in the best possible way. It’s called Revenge of the Tipping Point: Overstories, Super Spreaders, and the Rise of Social Engineering. All those words end up making sense once you read the book. He returned 25 years later after his original bestseller, The Tipping Point. He initially planned to revise it, but 25 years later, he realized he has changed and the world has changed, so it’s a completely new book very much situated in today’s culture, with today’s events and consequences of understanding tipping points. It’s absolutely fascinating.
Amy: Absolutely fascinating.
Jen: We did our best to pare down our questions, but we had a hundred that we didn’t get to. I was just saying this to Malcolm—he’s a fascinating combination that I find rare: a science brain that deals with analytics and data and complex issues, but he does it with a storyteller’s master touch.
Amy: It’s not fair!
Jen: It’s not! He’s incredible at what he does. I’m trying to think of who I would consider his peer or equal, and I’m drawing a blank.
Amy: I don’t know!
Jen: We are really lucky to have this conversation with Malcolm Gladwell. We’re just two girls sitting here in green chairs in Austin, so you’re going to love this conversation. He’s as fascinating in person as he is on the page. Enjoy this talk with Amy and me, and the incomparable Malcolm Gladwell.
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