Crime Junkies Host Ashley Flowers on True Crime, Activism, and Becoming a Novelist

Jen: So you guys, if you’ve been listening in this summer you’ve met my friend Amy. We gave you the delightful story of how we met and she’s back. Hi. 

Amy: I’m back. Hello. 

Jen: Hello. Thank you for driving to my house. 

Amy: You’re welcome. 

Jen: So we were in the studio together in May. We have both been gone. I was at my version of what I think of camp, and Amy at her version of what you think a camp is. 

Amy: Right, not the same thing. 

Jen: Not the same thing at all. Was it an extended amount of time? Yes. Did we travel? Yes. Did we go to pretty places. Yes. We’ve got some Venn diagram crossover. 

Amy: Right. 

Jen: It definitely kind of stops there. My camp MeCamp is a rented cabin with internet, a bed, and a shower. It’s indoorsy. Amy’s camp is what would be more considered camping outdoors. My folks have kind of been with me through MeCamp for four whole weeks in South Haven, Michigan which was a dream. Will you tell them what your camp was? 

Amy: My camp this year which is in its tenth year. We camp with a bunch of other families. This year we went to Lake Tahoe and Yosemite. We started out on BLM land. 

Jen: I don’t…is that black lives matter?

Amy: It is that but also stands for the Bureau of Land Management which is just public lands where you can camp. Our country is full of BLM land that you can just pull over on the side of the road and stay there.

Jen: So, what you’re saying is that it’s land that’s just land. There isn’t an electricity hookup or other things you find in a modern campground. 

Amy: No, but there are also BLM campgrounds that sometimes provide a porta-potty at the front of the campground. 

Jen: Well gosh that’s fancy! 

Amy: That’s where we were in the Arkansas Valley. 

Jen: Sometimes you have a porta-potty. That’s the perfect sentence to describe the differences between our two camps. You’re like, “Hey, sometimes they provide a porta-potty”, and you said it in a good way, like, “Hooray!” 

Amy: I could drive in my car and be there(the porta-potty)within two minutes. It was beautiful.

Jen: You win the beautiful surroundings contest, but your camping is in a tent. 

Amy: It’s in a tent. Although, I did get to buy a new air mattress and I have a very comfy sleeping bag. So I sleep really well. It’s not a thousand degrees, for one thing. We always go to the mountains. That’s our criteria. 

Jen: It’s kind of cold at night, right?

Amy: For sure. I sleep in a beanie and sometimes my puffy jacket on. Anyway, we were in the Buena Vista area. Then Tahoe and then Yosemite. 

Jen: How long was it? 

Amy: We were gone two and a half weeks. 

Jen: That is a very long time. 

Amy: Yes. 

Jen: I just have a question. 

Amy: Yes. 

Jen: I’m sorry to ask you this. If on the BLM land, there isn’t a wonderfully provided porta-potty. What are your other choices? 

Amy: Well, in our backpacks, Brad always has a little shovel. 

Jen: The choice is a shovel. 

Amy: Or we could drive to town for 15 – 20 minutes and go to the gas station. 

Jen: That feels way too hard.

Jen: Oh, well, no, that’s 100% what I would do, of course. So it’s a shovel. Well, okay. There’s…, there’s that. I also have a question because you have four sons. First of all, you’ve been doing this for a long time. Even when they were little. What a nightmare that would be for me but for you, this is a vacation. Do they have their own tent or how does this work? 

Amy: We’re all in the same tent. 

Jen: All six of you!

Amy: A huge tent, but this year we actually had a second tent. However, up until this point, it had been all six of us in one giant tent on three air mattresses. Also, I will correct you; I used to call it a vacation. 

Jen: What do you call it now? 

Amy: A family trip. 

Jen: Yeah, it’s a family trip. 

Amy: Then, one year, I had a vacation that was without children. 

Jen: Oh, then you understood what a vacation was. 

Amy: And then I realized I’d never had a vacation before. 

Jen: Correct, with a whole toilet and your own. You do what you want, you eat what you want, you do what you want. 

Amy: Right, also no kids. 

Jen: That’s the key. That’s the primary criteria. 

Amy: But a family trip is still worth it! 

Jen: No, no same. 

Amy: 100% worth it 

Jen: Same, it’s just framed it upright. You know, call it what it is. Vacation? No. Family trip? 

Jen: Let’s do a little segment we’re going to call “Culture Shock”. It’s wide. It’s broad. We have a lot of things to pull from culture. Culture is bananas right now, by the way. But let’s let’s keep it up at the top half of the glass. Do you have a guilty pleasure that you are watching right now? Like a show or something you’re watching. 

Amy: I do because I always have a plan when we come home from vacation and it’s a thousand degrees. I fully intend to stay inside and watch TV for six weeks. 

Jen: I know! Also to help you on-ramp back into this place. It’s as hot as the mouth of hell. 

Amy: So I had a plan to watch Our Flag Means Death. I’ve watched seasons one and two over and over. I was hoping season three would come out soon and it eventually wasn’t picked up. 

Jen: Our Flag Means Death? 

Amy: It’s the greatest gay pirate rom-com. 

Jen: Gay pirate rom-com. 

Amy: Ever created. 

Jen: Well, it’s the only gay pirate rom-com ever created. If you want to get down to brass tacks here. 

Amy: That we know of.

Jen: That we know of. I’m just saying I wouldn’t call that a super popular genre. 

Amy: No, but it should be and the show’s so brilliant. I love everything about it. 

Jen: Our Flag Means Death is such a dark term. 

Jen: I’m sorry to say and I’m embarrassed and I wish I was a better person

Amy: Ugh, I know what you’re gonna say. 

Jen: I know. Every time this stupid show comes out with another season, first of all, I’m like, “How is it still on the air?” Second of all, I’m like, “I’m not going to watch it because I have self-respect. I’m a serious person.” 

Amy: But are you? 

Jen: No! I’m not either. I have no self-respect and I’m not a serious person because, Ugh, it’s fired up again, like last week, and I’m watching The Bachelor, and I’m just sorry about it. I think it’s a terrible show. It’s truly a terrible premise. 

Amy: Right? 

Jen: It’s terrible for women. 

Amy: It’s been on for 187 seasons. 

Jen: It’s problematic. It is a disaster. And here I am watching it. 

Amy: Not just watching it, but there’s a planned event weekly, right? 

Jen: That’s the problem, to be honest. I would like to think that if this was up to me and I was a person who made her own choices, this would be out of my zeitgeist. But the problem is that my friends who live right here, the ones who are on my block. Watching this show is a weekly thing. We’re going to get together, we’re going to have some snacks, and we’re gonna watch The Bachelor. It’s disastrous and I “hate watch” it. I am telling you, you can ask any one of them and they will confirm this. 

Amy: I went one time, I know. 

Jen: Oh, yeah. 

Amy: Once, I got sucked in. I think it was the camaraderie and the snacks and I came for the most dramatic season finale ever. 

Jen: That’s a total lie. 

Amy: Anyway, I never came back. 

Jen: No, because you have integrity and I think that’s why. 

Jen: I’m telling you, I refused to even show up until it’s already been on for an hour because I’m not effing around with all those commercials. Megan is in charge, the watch party is at her house because her kids are asleep and she always has the remote control. I swear, if it shows a second of a commercial, I’m like, “Megan, come on, fast-forward.” and she’s like, “Literally, you are not a fun person to watch this with.” I’m like, “I didn’t say that I was, I didn’t claim to be and I don’t like the show. I wonder if they’ll stay married.” I’m embarrassed and sometimes I put myself in front of the community as a person to take seriously and then this stuff. So sorry. 

Amy: I can’t help. 

Jen: Yeah I know. Okay. I want to move into this episode because this episode originally aired on our premium channel. So only a sliver of the listening community got to hear it and I’m like, “No, this is good of an episode. We need to put this into the big show.” This is technically considered a guilty pleasure for a bunch of people listening which is true crime. What is your situation with true crime? 

Amy: I feel differently about it after listening to this episode.

Jen: Tell me what you mean by that. 

Amy: Before, I really did think the whole genre was voyeuristic and took advantage of tragedy. But I love Ashley’s take on it. I have watched a few true crime shows. I also listened to S-Town when it came out, which was a serial. I listen to that at your lake house. I don’t know what you were doing, but I was inside by myself listening to S-Town. 

Jen: That’s so funny and weird. 

Amy: I know. I listened to another one called The World Beneath. It was about organized crime. So I have listened to a couple but I have never gone to it for entertainment consistently. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Amy: But I really love her work. 

Jen: I do too. We have Ashley Flowers on today. True crime folks are gonna be excited because she’s super tip-top. She’s the tip-top of the mountain. She is the host and the creator of the runaway hit podcast called Crime Junkie. She’s reinvented the genre, frankly, and to your point, she has this really interesting and holistic way she thinks about the genre as a victim’s advocate and she’s really careful with her work. She’s also extremely interesting and smart. I’m like you in that I had an idea about what true crime was without a lot of personal experience because I don’t like scary things. And it’s literally called true crime. So it’s crimes that are true. Not only that, they’re unsolved crimes, which means the killers are on the loose, probably in my neighborhood. That feels scary to me. I am not a fan of scary. You’re not a fan of scary. 

Amy: No not at all. 

Jen: Our constitution isn’t meant for it. 

Amy: Nope. I can’t even watch a trailer for a scary movie. 

Jen: But they come on and go right into your eyes. You didn’t ask for that because you’re going to watch a different movie, right? But then the trailer comes on and that is what you’re going to lay in bed and see at night. 

Amy: Yes replayed over and over. 

Jen: My point is, I was thinking about true crime as a scary thing like that. But it’s not. I love this conversation with Ashley because she frames it up so differently and I don’t want to give away the episode, but she has used her show, her platform, and her very finessed way of telling and investigating a story. Her show has solved crimes. It is incredible. It’s crazy. Also, I’m just going to tease it because I want her to tell it, but she uses her platform in such a responsible way. For example, she’s built this whole nonprofit that benefits victims. I find her a fascinating person in the true crime genre. There’s a reason she is as successful as she is. Her star continues to rise. This came out, I think, last year, and since then she’s got so many new irons in the fire. I love it when good things happen to good people. So you guys are going to love this episode. I’m so happy to bring it to you and true crime folks get excited. To the rest of you, I think you may get indoctrinated after this episode. So you guys please enjoy the fantastic with Ashley Flowers.