Big Time Adulting with Caitlin Murray - Jen Hatmaker

Big Time Adulting with Caitlin Murray

By the time I had been through hell and back for over three years of pediatric cancer with my son, I knew my worth as a mother. I don’t give a f*ck about what anyone has to say about who I am. I know I am a good damn mom. – Caitlin Murray

Episode 30

In this funny, refreshing, and irreverent conversation about parenting, Jen welcomes Caitlin Murray to the show to talk about her Big Time Adulting community space, the blog (and now podcast) that Caitlin started when her 5-year-old son was in cancer treatment for Leukemia, as a place to connect with other moms and parents craving funny, provocative, no-nonsense entertainment to distract themselves from the hamster wheel of life

Like a big sister, Jen offers encouragement to guide Cailin through the years to come, with the two ultimately agreeing that early childhood is hard but middle school is the real shit show.

They commiserate over: 

  • Spirit Weeks, PTA obligations, and signing reading logs
  • The idea of the ‘Hardship Olympics’ that creates unnecessary competition among women / moms
  • Comparison parenting and why authenticity resonates more with their communities than curated perfection
  • How community and humor that can be found in the everyday chaos of parenting
Episode Transcript

Jen: You guys are in for a fun, fun, fun hour. We have a mom. She makes us mostly laugh. Laugh and laugh and laugh and laugh. I have laughed at her content with tears in my eyes. Sometimes cry because she can be tender and she’s been through it. She’s a real person with a real family and just kind of essentially not feel alone.

We’ve got Caitlin Murray today, and if her name does not immediately ring a bell. Her space might. And she is the genius behind big time adulting. I know a ton of us already. Follow her on Instagram. She’s built a community over there. Over a million followers. And if you don’t already know why, you’re about to. She’s funny, funny, funny.

And she just keeps it real. Her kind of catchphrase is shoot. She took center at our camera. At her phone. She’s like, just get yourself a snack, and she’s talking to you ladies. Just go get yourself a snack. To manage the absurdity of any given day. She opens up, pretty frankly, on this episode, but also in her space about her son’s leukemia journey, which was, to some degree, the genesis of what she began to create online.

And she’s just refreshing. It is. It is what you see is what you get. It is funny. It’s irreverent. It talks about parenting in terms that you’ll go, yep, that’s how it is. She has expanded her platform for good reason to include a podcast and brand partnerships that she believes in, all kinds of exciting new projects, including a book.

And we talk about that as well. And so she is delightful, funny, smart, honest. She’s parenting kids that are around. Let’s see if I can get this right. But it’s like maybe five, nine, 11. So that’s the stage she’s in. So we talked all about it. Like what my experience was like then what I think she has to look forward to.

She talks about what she’s working on right now, and it’s just you’re she is an absolute gem. And so I’m delighted to welcome Caitlin Murray to the For the Love podcast.

All right. Caitlin, I’m so happy to meet you. I’m so happy to meet you. Welcome to the show. I love you. Thank you. I mentioned you recently. I think you saw it like, I’m like, these. It was when the world was just burning at an exorbitantly high degree point, and I was like, hey, everybody. Let me offer you some suggestions on filling your social media feed with something that’s not hot garbage.

And you were on the short list.

Caitlin: I did notice that, and I was so flattered that you included me on your short list. And I’m so wonderfully honored to be here with you today.

Jen: We fine. Where are you at?

Caitlin: I’m in New York. Yeah, in Westchester, in the suburbs. So not in the city. Like.

Jen: You know, like I live in the West Village now with my little people. I ride the subway when they’re for.

Caitlin: I’m not chill enough to pull that off, because I think that that would make me lose my absolute f*cking mind every day. If I had to do things like operate city style with young children. So yeah, a driveway and a car and stuff like that is.

Jen: More of a target.

Caitlin: Yeah, things like that. The things I need, you know, I need them at my disposal.

Jen: Listen, I, you know, I have five kids, but I’m north of you. My youngest is just is turning 19 this week. And so. But I love New York City. I’m there we go a lot. I’m there a lot. And every time I see the young families there with a kindergartner and they’re just, I don’t know what they’re doing.

I don’t know how they’re living and they’re all on the subway and they’re like, got their little backpack. And then she’s got to go to the grocery bodega. Yeah. And Carter own shit home on her arms. I’m just like, how are you living the life? But I guess they do it.

Caitlin: I know, I think it’s so cool, actually. I know a lot of people who have kids in the city, and they do it really well, and those kids have, like, such a different exposure level and view of the world and that kind of thing. But then you need you also, if you want to do it right, you can you got to have some bank in the, in the bank.

Jen: Do you ever. I mean, truly, I cannot imagine the cost of it all. Yeah, I have a lot of friends that live there too, with kids, and I think their kids are such little badasses and my kids are soft. They will melt on a warm day, you know, like, they don’t have it. They don’t have the grit.

My daughter, my oldest daughter, went spend her freshman year of college in D.C. at American University. And because she was, like, going to get the hell out of Texas, of course, he’s just going to go somewhere where people are sophisticated and they are cosmopolitan, damn it. And she’s born and raised here. She’s like, I, I’m going where the people with brains are.

I’m like, okay, honey, fly free, fly your little fly your little wings to the East coast. And come April, we catch a phone call, a sobbing phone call. I can’t, I can’t be here anymore. The people are mean. Oh, nobody understands me. They don’t know why I’m asking so many questions. I’m just being friendly. I’m like, honey, come home.

Come home to where you belong. Oh, where? We don’t have physical boundaries or emotional belly. So, Oh. Soft. Okay. There was a detour. There we went. I love it. We didn’t raise kids in New York City, and it’s clear, let’s talk about you. I think your, like, curated social media space is so fantastic. Like, you’ve just threaded the perfect needle between being mostly hilarious, sometimes tender.

It sneaks in. It does. Sneaks in under the radar. Always honest. And it this is not always an easy space to create in today’s social media world around parenting. We’re real, real, real, precious people also use our internet and they have a hard time with satire, part time with humor. It goes like, oh, you right over. Okay, well, why did you have kids?

Well, why did you become a mother? And I know this because I was one of the olden day pioneers out doing this sort of content back when we just had the Facebook, the Facebook. So I’d love to hear you talk about the genesis of big time adulting and how it sort of came into being, because it also came out of real life.

Caitlin: Yeah. It did. First of all, I love the descriptive word of precious, and I’m going to start working that into my repertoire.

Jen: Yeah, yeah.

Caitlin: Or when I’m talking about a little bit of delicate, fragile digital humans out there. Yeah. It’s like, welcome to the internet. It’s going to go easier on day two. But yeah, my experience with starting my, my big time adulting page was it came out of, my son, my oldest son was diagnosed with leukemia when he was three years old.

And so, through that experience, I had begun writing just to use that as sort of a therapeutic outlet for me to just updates to family and friends. But it was just I kind of tried to put these updates in a much more like anecdotal tone was a little lifeless, and then humor mixed in and, and it was really just for me to like, put out there how I was feeling through all of this.

And on these long days at the hospital and the things that I saw going on around me and, you know, just the, the, the emotion and the stress of it all and putting it out there. So that actually also I felt like I was sort of protecting myself and doing that and saying exactly how I was feeling about what we were going through, rather than having anyone else kind of assume what I was feeling or thinking.

But I just enjoyed the process of writing so much. And, so I had had a conversation with somebody in the editing world, and they had asked about maybe like showing my blog that I had put all these emails on to, to a publisher. And the feedback was sort of like, it’s fine, but she doesn’t have a following, so we’re not going to give her a book deal.

And so then I learned about what the book publishing world is like, a little bit to delight. And. Yeah. And so I was like, all right, well, I’m going to just I guess I’ll try to do this platform thing. And I started my Instagram page and, and when I started it, I had only seen like motherhood, mommy blogger type pages where people came on with like a full fresh face of makeup and like, you know, showing their organizational strategies and taking beautiful photos of their children and matching outfits doing right.

You know.

Jen: Their high school.

Caitlin: Activities. Yeah. And I was like, f*ck that. I can’t be that person. I just couldn’t I wasn’t going to like, put a show on for like, you know, pretend to be somebody else. But I was like, but I think I have something else to offer. But I just knew I had to kind of, like, do it in a way that was going to be sustainable, like show up as I, as I was in the morning and stuff and, you know, like eventually some days I actually pull my shit together and look nice by the end of the day and stuff.

But that’s not how I wake up, and that’s not how I start my day with a full face of makeup, getting my kids bento boxes ready and stuff and, you know, twirling around like a tornado, swearing like a sailor, looking like hot garbage. So that’s how I. That’s how I came at it.

Jen: Not at all surprising that that worked and continues to work. Having sort of been through the arc of social media from its genesis to today. Yeah. Because I’m older than you, I can look historically back on everything I’ve ever said and done, which is Legion. Is is this is it’s just like death by quantity.

And, it is the, it’s the unfiltered, curated stuff that always 100 times out of 100 has the traction. Yeah, because obviously that’s normal. Obviously that is what everybody else is. It’s the, you know, the pitch perfect, you know, trad wife stuff that doesn’t nobody relates to that. No. Zero people. No. I mean it’s pretty to look at sometimes.

Caitlin: But like it’s more of like it’s almost like when you’re driving by car accident, you know, it’s like you don’t think you should look, but you can’t look away. It’s like, I want to see what’s going on, what’s going on over there. You know?

Jen: Totally. It’s such a mystery to me because we just we sort of live in ordered chaos. And so I don’t I don’t understand that space at all, and most people don’t. And so let’s talk about what it was like in those earliest days of creating for the internet, which is different than creating for your own blog, where you sort of have some sort of control over who’s there, who you’re sending your stuff to.

These are people that have opted in. And then once you go on the internet, it’s fair game, man. You’re just like chum in the water for anybody who has a phone in their hand. And so talk to me a little bit about the early days of putting like, the most absurd thing, you know, on the internet, and then people being like, hello, we like you.

Yeah. And how that began growing and how you began managing that. Because it’s weird, right? It’s weird to manage that.

Caitlin: Yeah, it’s really weird to manage that. And you do have to decide that you’re going to block out, you know, the negative or the people that, don’t like your content or that kind of thing and just become really comfortable with the notion that you’re not for everyone.

Jen: Right. Let me pause you there before you move on. So I’d like to hear you talk more about that specific thing. Did you decide that in your little heart before or did the internet beat it out of you where you were like, oh my gosh, I’m going to have to develop a thick skin because it took me a while to develop capacity around just mean people, really.

I mean, I’m trying to find a better just the, the, the criticism and the the willingness to just misunderstand everything you’re saying. Did you you’ve been around the internet, so you’ve seen it. So did you go in eyes wide open here or did it surprise you?

Caitlin: I’ll tell you what I there there’s something that happened to me going through that experience that I went through with my son. And, and this is not like an easy thing for women to do, but I’m going to do it and I’m going to say it is that by the time I had been through hell and back for over three years of pediatric cancer, and not just my son, but the things that I saw along the way, I knew my worth as a mother, and I was like, I don’t give a f*ck what anyone has to say about who I am and the way that I feel, because I know I am a good damn mom. And so, like having been through that was definitely a moment and experience that gave me a massive amount of conviction in what I was doing and saying, and that I also felt like I had a message to put out there that I knew other moms were feeling like they were in the trenches and losing their minds.

And to validate that experience and to really and, you know, debunk these picture perfect images and, depictions of motherhood because I felt so differently when I first became a mom than what I had expected I was supposed to feel or going to feel. But I knew that didn’t make me any less of a great mom.

And that you can really you can really do a lot. You could really be a vehicle for some truths out there, as long as you sugarcoat it with a little bit of humor and make it palatable for the masses, you know, it’s like it’s not dark. It doesn’t have to be dark. We can laugh about this, you know?

Jen: So yeah. Keep going.

Caitlin: No, I think that’s stuck. I think that was just like that, that I just with the with the haters and with anyone who is going to come at me about any of the stuff that I had to say it, it was a process of me like I’m much better at, like laughing that stuff off now or like not getting concerned.

Some mom just wrote a comment on, my newsletter that I put out called Soul Snacks. I was just talking about like, every my point is now is like, every now and again, somebody does piss me off a little bit, and I just I don’t know why it strikes. Maybe it’s because I’m in my luteal phase, I don’t know.

But like, I can’t always brush off everything. I’m better about it now. But she had said something along the lines of I was. I was writing about the morning hustle and how like, I feel just basically like I’m a chicken with my head cut off every single morning, no matter what I do like. It’s something like some shit always hits the fan, of course.

And, And I could be, like, as organized as possible and, like, something might happen at the last minute or whatever with one of the kids, because you just can’t predict what kids are going to do. And she said something along the lines of like, I love your honesty, but, I’m sure it’s like, nice for you when you come back from dropping off your kids to be able to decompress with a workout or go to the grocery store by yourself, because I have to go to my 9 to 5 and go to my rigid schedule.

And I, I was just like, hey, you have no f*cking idea. Like, you don’t know what I’m doing or behind the scenes of what you see me doing on social media. I work full time and even if I was just a stay at home mom and weren’t also running my own business and that kind of thing, it’s not a competition.

It’s still really hard. You’re doing other things like it’s not about trying to compare, you know, who has it worse. But yeah.

Jen: My friend Kristen calls the calls that the, the hardship Olympics.

Caitlin: Yes.

Jen: And women, love to be competitors in that particular event. Yes. And or is the source of endless misery. I don’t know if you ever read, The Onion or, McSweeney’s.

Caitlin: Oh, yeah. Yeah.

Jen: But McSweeney’s just recently put out an article is brilliant. And it was essentially like all satire, of course. Have you ever but did you consider every person that has ever lived before you? What’s that thing on the internet? I have like, oh my God, it’s so real. Like, well, but I work 9 to 5, so your content alienates me.

I’m like, okay, I, I, I also do yeah. Like work is work, man. Like I you do have to develop boundaries like emotional internal boundaries. So that shit doesn’t take you out of your own head.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: Yeah. Just knowing that some people are gonna, they want to be in the Olympics.

Caitlin: That I love that the hardship Olympics.

Jen: Yeah, yeah. And they’re going to win. Okay, well, I don’t like gold. Gold standard for you. I want to talk. I want to hear you talk a little bit about, because this goes into your entire ethos, your kind of whole approach to content and, how you are. I know this is a weird word, but essentially leading you are leading, and you’re leading through humor and honesty and shorts.

And that leadership looks different today than it maybe traditionally looked 20 years ago. And so I’d love to hear your thoughts on the women in your community and how they come to you. Having felt like they were in a competition with each other, with other women, with everybody they see online. I love the internet. The internet has created an entire ecosystem for me that was would have never been possible otherwise.

But also it really can be a black hole of dysfunction and comparison. And I feel it. And I’m grown, I am grown, I know better, I’ve been here and even sometimes I find myself gone. Said, you know, I didn’t do that Christmas tradition. I just, I was phoning that part in or whatever. And so I’d like to hear what you think about the curated access we now have to other people’s pitch perfect, seemingly pitch perfect life.

Caitlin: Yeah. It’s so hard I agree, I don’t I’m not impenetrable to letting that stuff infiltrate me to and and feel guilt and shame or, you know, less than at times as a mom and I think like half of the stuff that I say to my audience is really like me coaching myself through a lot of it to like, okay, don’t forget, you don’t have to be like everybody else.

Don’t forget you’re the best mom for your kids. Don’t forget like, perfect is not real. Like there’s shit going on behind the scenes all the time. So I think, like, I’m just a human too. Obviously, going through that wide range of emotions that moms are always going through. I just think there’s so much pressure on, on women and mothers out there to embody, you know, a certain image and persona and, I’m sick of that shit.

Just, you know, stop it. And people do like you, like we talked about a little bit like, you know, you do kind of like to look at that. Those maybe, like the trad wife thing and, like, be like, what are they doing? What is that? Is that cool? Maybe I would do.

Jen: That one day.

Caitlin: I don’t know, I want to make sure. No, no, but I, I think that like, what people really attach themselves to emotionally is going to be authenticity, you know, like something that’s real and that they can because there’s no there’s no emotional bond to these pages that you feel like you just look at for pretty stuff or whatever.

Like, I, I hope that and I do feel this like it’s an incredible source of validation for me as a creator, but also as a mom that like this audience that I feel like I’ve created and community is like you. We talked about there being some haters out there, but seriously, it’s just so many nice, wonderfully lovely, supportive women who I even feel like they they’ll like, message me and say, oh, you are so awesome.

Like, you make my day on this. And then I think I have to remember, like I need to make sure to say that to another woman today on the internet or in real life or whatever, just to like, build somebody who I really, truly feel that way about up to, you know, like break down the walls, be vulnerable.

Jen: I like that so much, I how old are you?

Caitlin: 42.

Jen: Yeah. My sense is that this is getting better. Like, I’m only eight years older than you but it is a gap because that’s an internet gap.

Caitlin: Yeah a lot.

Jen: Happened a lot happened. Yeah. In eight years. And I love watching kind of this next generation of women and moms sort of come up I see an improvement on expectations, on honesty, on telling the truth, on not being quite so rigid around our gender roles and this, this sense of, of perfection. I’m hope. I’m super hopeful, actually, I find that young leaders interesting and smart and funny and honest, and I think it’s getting better.

Do you notice that because we both lead women and I, I am I am encouraged by the shrinking demographic, at least in my experience of of of women who are threatened or rattled, or triggered by, a really honest rendition of motherhood and parenting and womanhood that seems to be getting smaller and the honest crew seems to be growing.

Do you sense that?

Caitlin: I think that I do. I mean, I wonder sometimes, I just like getting so much of that feedback because of what I do. But I do think that you’re right. I feel like there is a softening around it. And it’s not just, it’s not just women, it’s men, too, because I think that, like, men and fathers are so much more involved and hands on than they ever have been.

You know, there’s so little ways to go, but, it’s better. It’s so much better, you know? And so with that comes like, just a more greater societal appreciation for what women and mothers have done. And they don’t. And maybe they let their guard down and not feel like they need to compete or say that I’m doing the best at this or whatever.

And it’s it’s just, a better environment. I think you’re right.

Jen: I agree, I’m watching the young dads right now. I’m my friend group. We all have young adults, and they’re getting married and having babies.

Caitlin: Crazy.

Jen: It’s bananas. Yeah, it is absolutely bonkers.

Caitlin: I can’t imagine what that must feel like for that time itself.

Jen: It feels very awesome.

Caitlin: You know, that’s so great.

Jen: I feel so awesome. And we are this tight crew. And so it’s like, these are our babies, you know, like, your son’s kid is mine. Essentially. And so but watching our adult sons, our 20 somethings mostly edging up to 30 be dads, I’m like, what is this genre? Yeah, guys. I mean they’re they’re all in, in in the ways that truly I mean I was a 23 year old mom.

So God help. Yeah.

Caitlin: So yeah.

Jen: But. Oh yeah. Oh my God, what? In the whole world? I had three kids. I had three kids when I turned 27.

Caitlin: That’s wild. Yeah.

Jen: It’s wild. Oh, it’s so wild. And just. I don’t know if I don’t think we’ve mentioned it, but just for everybody listening, will you tell them how old your kids are so they understand exactly what stage of parenting you’re in?

Caitlin: Yeah, sure. So my oldest is now 11, and healthy, by the way. Doing great. And my middle is nine, and she’s a third grader, and my little guy is a five year old kindergartner.

Jen: Yeah. You’re emerging from the weeds.

Caitlin: Yeah. I really feel like that. And I would love to hear your validation on that, because I find, I found that that first, era of life as images to be incredibly challenging. And yeah, I was in the midst of, like, greater challenge with when we were kids, but still, it was really, truly the every day monotony and feeling of trapped that I had, loss of autonomy like that really crushed me.

Yes. I can’t feel like trapped. Or I need to break free or be crazy on the internet, so maybe it was good. So.

Jen: Did you. I mean, of course, you were really managing your your son’s health. Did you stay home with your kids when they were little? Did you do some sort of hybrid? Were you working outside that? What did that look like for you at the time?

Caitlin: Yeah. At the time when I first was pregnant with my oldest, I was like dead set in my mind. I was like, I’m going to be a stay at home mom. This is what I want to do. I was like, I’m born to do this. I’m going to be a great mom. And I had a baby. And then I was like, I want to go back to work.

Jen: Someone take me into your office.

Caitlin: Please let me go sit in an office today, please. Yeah. It was just so much easier. So I ended up going to a hybrid. My boss was actually awesome at the time. She was like, do me a favor. Don’t like, you can do that if you want to, but just wait till after maternity leave, see how you feel.

You might want to come back. She’s like, take the leave. Do you know, she was so gracious to me about the whole thing and I don’t know, she just anticipated that I might feel that way. But she was right. And I and I did not expect it. I truly was like, no, you don’t understand. I am going to be a stay at home mom and take care of my kids, and nobody else is going to do this for me.

And I was like, martyr ish about that. And and then I had a real dose of reality once I became a real, a real live mom and not just an imaginary mom. That’s right. Yeah.

Jen: I really appreciate you saying that. I worked full time until I had my second kid. Yeah, and I just made so little money because I was a teacher that at that point, I couldn’t afford full time childcare for two babies. Yeah. So I didn’t stay home until I had a second. So I, went and I worked full time until the day she was born.

And so I went from a full time person in a job to a stay home mom of a baby and a two year old.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: And when I tell you, some days I just thought about, like, driving my car into a tree, I and I, all I ever wanted to do was I wanted to raise them. I was thrilled, I was so thrilled to get to do it. And I still am like, it’s hard to talk about this because people like, attach their own issues.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: To how hard it is to be a stay at home mom of littles and say, well, why did you even have them? Why did you have kids? Why did you become a mom? Two things can be true at once.

Caitlin: Yeah, that.

Jen: Those babies are the like, delight of our lives, and we’re thrilled to have them in our homes. And also, Jesus, somebody like somebody. Come help me. Somebody take them. Yeah. Because I tell you.

Caitlin: Are a whole other person outside of your role as a mom, right? Like there’s so much more to you than just being a mom. And they’re like kids. You have five of them.

Jen: I know, it’s so many, right? So many high number.

Caitlin: I cannot even imagine adding two more humans into my repertoire. It’s amazing. I mean, just.

Jen: Now, to be fair, you know, I had three of them out of my body, like, you have a baby, and, the bottom two are adopted, and we adopted them when they were five and eight. So I just leaped. Right.

Caitlin: Okay. Well, that’s a little bit better not not to have to go through the newborn and breastfeeding and all of that.

Jen: They came in, but.

Caitlin: Still that it presents his whole own set of other challenges.

Jen: So tell me, yeah. I mean.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: I don’t I, I had a hard time finding someone, so I had my kids 98 2000, 2002 back then. This is pre-Internet, really. I mean, I didn’t have I found it hard. It was hard to find somebody telling the truth about that stage of life. And I worked so hard at it. But I felt like a caged animal.

And I tell young moms all the time, in my opinion, and at this point, I’ve been through all the stages. Yeah, I mean, I have a married kid. Yeah. I think for me, the early childhood and even the earliest part of elementary school is the hardest stage of all the parenting.

Caitlin: I love all of it. I God bless you for saying that because you know what I hear also a lot like I do hear that perspective from a lot of moms too, but a lot of other moms are like, just you wait until the teenage years and this and that. Like, I’m not an idiot. I know there are going to be challenges ahead, but I also know myself and what I’m like, cut out for for other things.

You know, there’s it’s just sometimes are different strokes for different folks.

Jen: You’re going to love the teen years.

Caitlin: You’re the best for saying that.

Jen: You know, I’m being serious and I have I have beat this drum for so long. But of course, I think you and I may be similar in that I’m I’m. I am made for big kids. Yeah, that’s my jam.

Caitlin: Like, let’s talk about real deep shit together and laugh and like.

Jen: They’re funny. Yes. Interesting. And they curse in front of you and you don’t have to. You’re not using the I call them parenting words, like the parenting words are all you get to use when they’re little. Like and, and can you use your words and and where does your fork go? And all those parenting where we don’t talk.

That’s not how normal people talk. Yeah. And so just talking like that to a little kid all day long, I’m like, oh, I know, I know, it’s just it’s so boring.

Jen: It’s so boring. And also you’re just like, playing at it like I’m a preschool teacher. Yeah. You know, I just want to talk to you like a person. Yeah, I did, I did that really, really early. People used to always tell me because I would, like, have this two year old baby with me, and I would be speaking to them like they were in college.

Like, I mean, do you really want do you want to have that back? You want to try that again? I mean, I just, I, I kind of.

Caitlin: I think that the kids like that though, like, just as much as adults do. Like, they, they sense like the bullshit and they want to be talked like they want to be taken seriously too, right?

Jen: I think they do. Yeah. Tell me what you think about this phase that you’re in because you’re an elementary. You’re an elementary is your oldest, and your oldest is.

Caitlin: Still in elementary.

Jen: He’s. Yeah. Yeah, sure. At the last.

Caitlin: Yeah. There. Yeah. I have this one year where they’re all in school together, and it’ll be the only time that ever happens. So it’s kind of special, but this phase of life is still very taxing and demanding and, like, there’s so not like, really stellar executive high functioning skills going on. So, like, there’s a lot of repetitive instructions and things like that that have to require a lot of patience and, yeah, I think that it’s still it’s still quite demanding and exhausting.

And they’re still they still haven’t turned the corner into that, like, really more adult mindset. I actually see my daughter getting there a little faster even. She’s like super, highly aware and like social sciences and that kind of thing. And my oldest is like a genius. He’s so friggin smart. But he’s like more he’s like, still a little kid.

And they all they all really are. And then I have a five year old who’s still a f*cking five year old. That’s about that’s like, you know, goes for itself. He’s a kindergartner and or whatever speaks for itself. And it’s he’s adorable but crazy and.

Jen: Of.

Caitlin: Course drives me insane like half of the day, but also isn’t. It’s just so cute that I, I’m holding on to him being little, a little bit more than I would have even anticipated because he because he laughs. Yeah, yeah.

Jen: It is so real. My bigs my youngest, her name is Remy. And,

Caitlin: And she’s a 19 year.

Jen: Old. She’s my 19 year old. But, her dad and I got divorced when she had just finished eighth grade. And so she has been my I’m her person. It’s just she and I, like, I, she just lives with me. And, so my, my big kids are like, we wish that we had Remy’s mom. I’m like, no, know, like, I know what you’re saying.

I’m sorry. You are my practice children, like, I don’t I didn’t know what I was doing, I was a baby. I’m like Sydney, my daughter, my 24 year old. I’m like, when I was your age, I had a baby and I was pregnant with you. She’s like, jeez, mom. I’m like, I know, yeah, I know. I’m like, I’m sorry I learned on you guys and I wish you well on your journey.

Jen: Yeah.

Caitlin: But but do you find your kids are, like, also just, like, completely forgiving of the things that you might have beat yourself up over. And they they accept you as a whole person?

Jen: Oh, yeah. Let me just tell you, your best days are ahead. Like these kids sift the things that you lay in bed at night and just obsess over that you did poorly. Yeah. When you lost your shit or you didn’t do this one thing or you missed something or you messed up. Hello? That’s your whole motherhood journey. So that never ends.

They just that just falls right out of their brains. Like, they get older. And I’m just telling you the stuff that sticks is the soft tissue. It’s not the bones. Like, we obsess about the bones like that one that we broke and that one that didn’t set right. And all these, like, real hard memories. It’s the soft tissue, though, that makes it into their adult psyche, which is I was deeply loved.

Jen: I lived in a safe and secure home. My mom was into me. My mom thinks I’m funny. Like we laughed a lot in our home. I just felt safe in my own family. That’s the stuff that lasts. Like everything else turns into funny comedic material. Yeah, I hope like my bit. They do, it does.

Caitlin: And the more you can like, also make fun of yourself in those instances, right? So that they’re like, I like to do that a lot. I’m like, remember when I was going cuckoo manga the other day? Like out of my hat? They like, start to laugh and I’m like, well, I’m sorry about that because I am crazy.

Jen: That’s right. That’s how that works. And when they get older, it just gets more sophisticated. They troll you outright like.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: And they, they just it which is hilarious there. And then they have their own group chat without me where they make fun of me. Oh my God. And then they’ll cut.

Caitlin: It’s like, I know what you’re doing. I know what you’re saying about me.

Jen: Yeah, I know what you’re saying about me. But you know what? You’re welcome. Like I paid for your college. So just go on with your life. But, it is it is really, really fun to have big kids. And I want you to know this, too. I also tell young moms that the hardest, absolute, hardest phase is early childhood.

The absolute second hardest phase is elementary school. What a beat down. Yeah, what a beat down it is.

Caitlin: Because you’re still really responsible for everything. Like they’re not there. Like they really need you for everything still.

Jen: So to say nothing of the amount of emails you have in your inbox from every class.

Caitlin: Oh God, I can’t help, I can inbox, it is just bursting at the seams with informational bullshit. I just like no, I can’t.

Jen: Handle the spirit weeks and like the projects and the, PTA teacher appreciation.

Caitlin: So many things. Yes, you’re giving me the shivers.

Jen: Listen, guess what’s about to happen to you? Well, I’ll readily admit, middle school is a real shit. Shit. Okay? Just that that’s the worst time to be alive. If you’re a human person. Yes. Those three years. That’s fine. We’ll give it to them. We were. Do you remember being in middle school? What a nightmare.

Caitlin: So awkward.

Jen: Oh, so awkward. We’re so weird. Our bodies were. Everything’s weird, but what happens is you’re done. You’re done. You don’t. Your teachers are not emailing you, being like, did you sign the reading log? That’s over.

Caitlin: It’s just over. Signed the reading log every single day.

Jen: No, I know you do.

Caitlin: Oh my.

Jen: God, I eventually told my kids. Can you sign my name?

Caitlin: Yeah, just for a yes. We’re actually like, work.

Jen: Sit around the table and practice. Here’s how it.

Caitlin: Works. Sure.

Jen: But middle school, they’re just like, yeah, send your kid to us. We’ll send them home at 430. Let’s hope for the best.

Caitlin: Yeah. That sounds it’s like it’s going to be better, but worse, right? Like some things are going to get a lot easier and then it’s going to be harder for them. Easier? Yeah. Yeah.

Jen: Except, you know, you just let them be their weird little selves when they’re going to middle school. My oldest son Gavin, went to middle and like like your family, my daughter was already outpacing his maturity and like, social capacity and I mean coolness, if I’m being honest.

Caitlin: Yeah, that’s what it is. The coolness.

Jen: The coolness. Yeah. My son went straight to middle school and joined the ninja club.

Caitlin: Yeah, yeah, my son would totally do that. Yes. And still in his mind be imagining stuff like, like in that mindset, you know, my dad was like, can we go smoke a cigaret under the teachers? You know, that’s exactly that.

Jen: That really just that art continues. What’s your favorite? Like, what’s your favorite parenting bit right now that you’re, like enjoying trolling and making fun of or like below material?

Caitlin: Oh, God, I mean, there’s just so much to draw from.

Jen: There these.

Caitlin: Days, but I just, I think, like, I, I think I’m really my, my explore page is serving me so much protein and steps and things like that, like all of the health wellness stuff. And just like the idea that you need to do all of these things to lower your stress, like to lower your cortisol, you know, and.

Jen: There’s like a list of tasks,

Caitlin: Oh my God, do you know how overwhelmed we all already are? Like, you can’t seriously expect this to lower cortisol? Like, I think that’s the funniest thing to me. It’s just like, oh, yeah. Yeah. Now we have some new stuff for you to focus on that. It’s in case what you’ve been doing already isn’t enough. You’re done.

That’s right. Actually, you’re slowly killing yourself and do better, do more.

Jen: Do do more, do better. If you don’t do these things, you’ll probably be crippled with like, no bone density.

Caitlin: And you aren’t. You won’t be able to open a jar when you’re when you’re 75, you won’t be able to open a jar. And you know what? I’m going to just. I’ll hire the kid who lives next door to open my jars for me. Leave me alone.

Jen: Leave me alone. The internet is so bossy about that kind of stuff.

Caitlin: So bossy, so judgy. I’m like, you don’t know how many grams of protein I’m eating. Get out of my face.

Jen: Right. What are you talking about? Hundred and 20g a day. What do you think I’m doing? What do you think we’re doing over here or there?

Caitlin: Like I’m job 17.

Jen: Absolutely insane. What are you wanting to do next? Like, this is so great, because what you have built is a community who loves you, who now trusts and is a their loyalists to the content that you create and the the sort of ethos that you nurture in the parenting space. And so that’s not a small thing. That’s not that’s it’s not a flash in the pan.

Because you’ve demonstrated consistency here, which builds deeper roots because, you know, there’s such a thing as just like, obviously the sort of tick tock spikes. Yeah, I know you’re you’re you’re.

Caitlin: Or something that.

Jen: You’re famous overnight and it’s, but it’s very, very shallow. So that’s easy come easy go. But building a community with deeper roots that they stick and they stay, with you and even with each other, which is really wonderful to see is special. So. And you have that. So what do you want to do with this?

Caitlin: Yeah, I actually love talking about this because I never expected necessarily to grow to where I am. When I started out my page, you know, it was just sort of like, I’ll just see what happens. It was like, you know, kind of like throw some shit and so on and see what sticks and like, low stakes. Yeah, yeah.

And so I’m just actually kind of blown away in, in some senses by what I’ve learned about what you can do with this. But it’s also been something that, like I did truly know deep in my heart that I wanted more for myself. Like I felt like I had something to share and that I could make that into a career and a job for myself and to become successful in that and like, monetarily successful and that kind of thing.

And I tried to be really careful along the way, like, I’ve never wanted to just be an influencer, you know, like just to get out there and like hack other people’s products or things like that. But I do do some of that stuff now because it’s it’s pretty lucrative at the point there, like when you get to a certain audience size and, and then you get to pick and choose who you want to work with and stuff like that, which is cool, which is really cool.

But what I really want is like something that is mine. So, like my own business that I develop out of this. I am writing a book right now, which was my original like goal and dream. It’s full page. So that’s that’s pretty cool too. And I, I’m excited to sort of just go through that. I’m trying to be mostly focused on that right now.

It’s taking most of my energy writing the book and thinking about that part of my work. But I’m excited to see, like, what that whole process does for me in terms of like going on a book tour and like getting yourself out there more and, and, and getting into, like, the real world with your content more than behind the screen.

But it’s been like it’s been such an incredible blessing for me to be able to do this via social media at a time where, you know, like I started it while my son was still in cancer treatment and I truly had to be home with him all the time. And, and to be able to have this as an outlet to do while I was doing the things that I needed to do for my family.

What a gift. What a cool thing in today’s day and age. And, yeah, so I, you know, I do what I really hope is to like, grow an actual real business, whether that’s like, you know, a digital media situation or a product of my own. All of it, both of it moving into, like, the actual, like the TV world, maybe at some point, like a scripted series or things.

Jen: Yeah.

Caitlin: Writing.

Jen: Wow.

Caitlin: I don’t know. We’ll see. We’ll see.

Jen: This. I like what I’m hearing.

Caitlin: My mind is open to like, all of these things, and I feel like I’m starting to get to a place where I can, manage it. Yeah, in a way.

Jen: Can you tell us more about your book, or is it still behind the firewall?

Caitlin: No, I can tell you about it as far as what I know about it. Sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, it’s such a process because it was like, I don’t have, like, the attention span, maybe to write, like, one long story. So it’s a, it’s a compilation of short stories. Yeah. Me too. And I like to read that, like in that format too.

It’s nice for like when you’re tired at the end of the day, just like pick up and read one story and you don’t even have to remember where you left off, which is cool. So that’s the that’s the vibe. But I still have a lot to go on it. I’ve only like, I’ve written like less than half of it so far.

Okay.

Jen: So is it titled yet?

Caitlin: Not yet. Yeah. Yeah, I haven’t decided.

Jen: Yeah. That is such a that’s such a gantlet. Sometimes the type of event.

Caitlin: It feels like there’s so much weight on that.

Jen: It does.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: What’s your favorite story that you’ve written so far?

Caitlin: Oh, in the book. It’s funny, I write like I’ve been writing stories from throughout my life and, different chapters of my life, and, like, it’s cool to take yourself back and, and there have been some stories like, that I hadn’t even like. I had been almost dreading writing because I knew how much emotion it would drag up in me and stuff.

Like you were saying, you were, divorced when you’re young. This was in the eighth grade. I my parents got divorced when I was in the eighth grade, and I just wrote this whole depiction of, like, the day that I, I learned that my dad was leaving and that he, like, left the house that day. And how deeply emotional and how I thought that I remembered every single detail of that day.

And I talked about a lot of the details. But then, like later in my life recently, my dad reminded me of something that I had done and said for him that day that I had forgotten about. And it was like this deeply meaningful moment to him. And, and so that kind of thing, I’m even getting emotional now, talking about it.

But then, like other things that are funny, we’re just like writing about this car that I drove for like eight years into the ground that literally exploded on my way to my waitressing job when, you know, so just going back through the times, it’s been fun to write about it. So fun.

Jen: Writing is so fun. Writing funny is so fun.

Caitlin: Yeah, yeah, it’s.

Jen: It’s my favorite thing to do. Yeah. You’re slivers of the pie chart.

Caitlin: That’s my favorite prolific writer. Like, I’m going through this process of, like, okay, I have to just get this out on paper, right? And then I’ll go back and fine tune the jokes and, like, totally make it funny along the way.

Jen: That’s such a good approach. I, when I was writing in my earlier career, I had this sense that it’s gotta, I gotta lay it on the page correctly and perfectly. It’s just so natural. Just get it down. Yeah. Like, just get it down and you can, like turn the dials on it later.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: But and even now my, my approach to writing is don’t don’t edit as you go, don’t keep something out because you think, I don’t know if I can say this. Right. Let’s go ahead and write it. You can take it out next month. Yeah, yeah. But like just get it on the page and you may decide to keep it, which is almost always.

Caitlin: What about when you’re writing a story and you’re like, okay, I kind of feel fatigued at this point on this story. I’m going to drop this one for now, but I have to come back to it. Do you do that?

Jen: Like, oh my gosh.

Caitlin: And then come back and finish it later? But does it like, haunt you and like weigh on you like,

Jen: Okay. I’ve done that so many times. I, I’ve always written in nonfiction too. And what I’ve learned after this many books is, generally speaking, the first third is, it’s just trash. It’s it’s garbage writing. It’s amateur hour, and I, I’m a cold starter, and, I about the third mark is when I get hot. Yeah.

The material starts to not sound like a sixth grader. And so I just know. Like, I just know I’m gonna have to go back and revisit that. I’m going to have to go back to the first third later when I have remembered how to be a writer. Yeah. And make that readable. Yeah. And so what I have discovered, I don’t know if your brain works like this, I that used to make me panic when I needed to set something down, because it sucked and, like.

Jen: Or I just couldn’t keep going or I couldn’t find it. I couldn’t find the thread. I couldn’t land the plane. Yeah. And I’m like, well, if I leave it, I’ll never, ever come back to it. But my brain would give me thoughts about that incomplete writing in the shower.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: In the car while I was folding a shirt. Yeah. And so if I could just let it live back here for a while, my brain will handle it. Yeah, it’ll deal with it and it’ll present it to me when it has thought through a better solution. And so who cares? Yeah, yeah, yeah. It’s you later. Yeah. That story will finish in your own thinking.

Caitlin: I’m trying to. I’m trying to embody that as much as I can. Just, like, don’t try to be perfect. Just get it out.

Jen: Just put it down. Yeah. Even if it’s shitty. Do you read and lament at all? Yes. Such a mentor to me as a writer. Yeah. Shitty first drafts, she says. Yeah, she’s getting shitty. First draft. She’s a real, just. I based a lot of my writing on what she was able to do on a page.

I mean, nobody could be Elamite, but she showed me, like, you can write like this.

Caitlin: I have to admit to you that I only, like, just kind of learned about. And my somewhat recently, like in the last couple of years and, I had just heard her on a podcast and I was like, this f*cking woman is a legend.

Jen: She’s an icon.

Caitlin: Yes, she was.

Jen: So there’s no one else touched.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: Who do you love? Who are the writers that you like are looking at going? I’d like to. It’s a it’s not a bad thing to say. I’d like to emulate something in that space. This is a tone that I like or a style that I, I’m drawn.

Caitlin: To. David Sedaris is like my number one. Yeah, just I just adore, if I could even, like, touch a little sliver of how funny he is, then I’ll be like, yes, I did it. And he said.

Jen: I like the asker.

Caitlin: Amazing. And, and then, he, I mean, not lately just I’ve my, my other, like, just favorite books and author, in my grown up years is, Edith Eger, her daughter Edie. I mean, she’s just, like, the inspiration and just getting through hard times. She’s Holocaust survivor, and I love that. Yeah, I just I draw inspiration from her all of the time.

Just like when I feel like I’m going through something hard, I’m like, stop being a wimp. You know, even through. And, yeah, her and I’ve been reading, some of Jesse Klein’s books right now. Yeah, you’ll grow out of that. And she’s just so funny, too. So, like, trying to do some research and reading books that are, like, similar to the genre that I’m trying to I love that fit into.

And yeah.

Jen: Perfect. And then you still get to just be your own self inside those those inspirational structures. My boyfriend Tyler always says, Michael and we’ve been together three years. He’s like, my goal is for you to leave me at the 50% mark of how much you love David Sedaris, buddy. Keep believing in your dreams.

Caitlin: See, we are really alike, you and I.

Jen: We really are. He is, you know, he lives on his own island of comedic genius. Totally. Get there. By boat or by hook or by crook. We can look with our binoculars and be like. We like what you got over there? Well, I’m really excited for you. Winter book going to come out. Do you know?

Caitlin: Probably not until, like, midway through 2026 or something. Yeah. Yeah, yeah.

Jen: How exciting. Yeah. What a fun new day for you.

Caitlin: I love it. Yeah. And except.

Jen: On the days that you hate it.

Caitlin: I know outside of those days you’re going to love it I, I desperately want to do it and want to get through it. It’s going to be a lot on me. I know it well. Like, and especially when I have to get out there and do the promoting because I hate being self-promoting and oh boy, oh, but I’ll find it in me.

I’ll do it. Well.

Jen: You will, you’ll find it and you’ll find a way to do it in your way. Yeah, you’ll do it in your style. Because writing a book and promoting a book or two completely different energies.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: But you can do it your way.

Caitlin: Yeah.

Jen: And you just call me when, you know.

Caitlin: Yeah. I was going to say I’m probably going to have to ask you.

Jen: Yeah, yeah. There’s like this standard traditional publishing world that exist and everybody wants you just to plug in that outlet, but it does not. That’s not the only outlet. Yeah. You can build your own and do it in a way that is resonant and you have integrity in it and it feels like you. Yeah, it sounds like your community.

So, don’t be afraid to just, you know, bust up a few rules as you go, but it’s so exciting. I’m thrilled for you.

Caitlin: Thank you.

Jen: And I’m thrilled for everything that you’re building and who you are in the world. You do not have to walk anything back. You didn’t start down one path because it was more sellable, and then have to figure out a way to reverse it. Or not disappoint everybody, because that’s not really who you are. You you started out in alignment as you are, in full honesty, telling the truth about your life and frankly, everybody’s lives.

And what a great place to build. That’s such a solid foundation. And you can build on that for the next 30 years. I mean, that’s it. You’ve done it. You’ve done the right thing. You built with the right stones at the base of the house. And so now what you the way in which you can build up and up and up is endless.

It’s infinite. And so I’m really excited to watch you do that.

Caitlin: I deeply appreciate that. Thank you.

Jen: Welcome. You’re you’re going for it. Okay, so everybody just so they just in case they don’t know the best places to, like, follow you and grab your grab on to what you’re doing.

Caitlin: My my place where I really am is on Instagram at big time adulting. And then I have some offshoots from there which you can catch if you’re following me over there. People like my Soul snacks. It’s my little like diary entry weekly that I throw out there, and that’s been really cool for me too, because I can sort of, you know, lean into the writing thing and get people warmed up to, like seeing the way that I like to write and that kind of thing.

And I love doing it totally.

Jen: And then it’s kind of a little safe testing space material.

Caitlin: Yeah, totally.

Jen: All right, guys, we’ll round all that out for you so you can have, like, one click and find Caitlin everywhere. Thanks for being on today. Thanks for coming. Thanks for coming on our little show. I’m so sorry that Amy wasn’t here. She’s devastated.

Caitlin: Or maybe we can do it another time when Amy’s back.

Jen: She says. And right after you. I’ve got Chip Leighton. Do you know her chip is. No. Okay, well. He’s here. Next phase of life. He’s the one that does, like, texts from teens.

Caitlin: Oh, yes, I do know who he is. He’s so funny.

Jen: Also so funny. So so so so funny. Yes. That’s just you in five years.

Caitlin: Yes. Okay. Anyway, so,

Jen: It’s fun parenting content people today. Okay.

Caitlin: Thank you so much.

Jen: You’re welcome. I’m so happy to have met you. Thanks for being here. See you.

Caitlin: Soon.

Jen: All right, you guys, I’m thrilled for you to follow her. If if I just introduced you to Caitlin. So if you go over to Jen haymaker.com, grab the podcast tab. I will have this whole episode for you. And we will round up all a Caitlin’s things. Oliver handles all of her stuff. I’ll put links to her newsletter.

Just everything, so you can get it in one place. And you’re going to be so glad that you on board. Caitlin. Stuff from big time adulting into your feed. I mean, if you’re just interested in a feed that’s just less just a burning dumpster fire, this is your solution. This will she’ll bring you delight and joy and connection on every single post, no exceptions.

So you’re welcome, everybody. So I hope you enjoyed it. If you did share this episode. We love when you do that. And also if you haven’t subscribed to the show already, go ahead and do it. It’ll probably take you 10s. Wherever you listen to podcasts, you just hit add or follow. And really, that’s kind of it. And it shows up in your personal podcast library every week and you don’t have to go hunting it down.

So thanks for doing that. We love our subscribers so much. All right you guys. That’s it for this week. And we’ll see you next week. Have a good one.

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

McSweeney’s article – Did You Even Consider Every Possible Lived Experience Before Recklessly Posting Your Chili Recipe on Social Media?

Anne Lamott

David Sedaris

Edith Eger

You’ll Grow Out Of It by Jessi Klein

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