Building Bridges, Not Walls: Tim Shriver on Dignity that Transcends Disagreements

Jen

Good morning.

Amy

Good morning.

Jen

How are you?

Amy

I’m. Well. Today. Yay! You love to see it

Jen

You’re kind of pulling out of a bit of a bit of a body tailspin inside, okay. To say. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You took to the bed. Isn’t that how our grandma used to say it? I need to take to the bed.

Amy

Yes. And Lee and Morgan says that.

Jen

Oh, God. She does. My brain was just saying. Wait.

I just recently heard that. That’s right. Yes.

Amy

Every so often I have to take to the bed. But it helps. And then I’m back.

Jen

Oh, yay! Oh, I’m so happy.

Amy

It’s just, you know, a cycle.

Jen

This is fun today, you guys, we have. We just wrapped our interview, and it was good. It was really. It was good. We we have a, person who comes from, I think we could safely say, a fairly remarkable family. This is a family of politicians. It is a family of public servants. It is certainly a family of philanthropists.

And you may have heard them. The Kennedys. I mean.

First of all, for those of you listening, I, I can’t. You may want to pop over to YouTube to watch, you know, we record all of our shows, video record. And please, please, somebody be looking at them because of this beautiful new studio. And, of course, our beautiful faces. Who wouldn’t want to just talk? But anyway, have you ever seen a family with.

With a clearer genetic code?

Amy

No.

Jen

Do you know what I mean? Yes. I could spot a Kennedy Shriver. One out of a million. That square like, angular face and jaw. He popped up and I was like, well, there’s Tim Shriver looking like the family. So we’ve got we’ve got Tim Shriver on today, and I think you’re going to find this hopeful. Do you?

Amy

Yes. For sure. Yeah. I think I when I first looked at some of it, I had specifically the dignity index and how to chart your own language towards people working hard not to dehumanize the other side. You talk about it in the interview. Like, at first you’re like, yes, that’s what we need. And then, like a little righteous indignation rose up in me.

But he was able to settle all of that. That’s like, I do understand the knee jerk reaction we’re all having. But but the answer is in changing our own behavior.

Jen

I hope that we’ll, like, entice you to keep listening, because we did. We kind of cycled through some, some feelings, you know, through this big idea of what it means to. Reimagine a culture of dignity across big, important, consequential issues and divides. And anyway, okay, we’re stealing. We’re stealing from the show.

Amy

Sorry.

Jen

Before we get to all that and trust me, it is worth your time listening today. And I. You’re going to be glad that you did. We have a segment that we love called Bless and Release.

These are the kinds of things that maybe once upon a time, we either used or employed or engaged or believed or whatever. And at this point in our life, we are like, fare thee well, we release you back from whence you came, and we are no longer going to be in need of your service. So I’d love to talk for just just a minute as we head into this really interesting conversation with Tim Shriver about specific sphere spheres.

Pick one. Pick a fear that maybe has been a longtime companion in in a specific way that you are either releasing or you want to release saying, you know, because releasing and wanting release is a bit of a continuum, right?

Amy

I actually have a big one. You do. And it’s not about me because I have not really learned to release the fears about me personally.

Jen

Tell me what you mean by that.

Amy

Well like there are fears I would like to release. Fear of rejection. Fear of new things. I’m stoked. Fear is still sort of a fuel for me. Okay. But the one thing that I think I have mostly walked away from is the fear of my kids trajectory.

Jen

Oh gosh.

Amy

Being my responsibility. Oh, boy. Which I that’s huge. And you could pick that apart in a million ways for a thousand years. But in general, I think I really understand now like at a gut level, that what I say and do and advise doesn’t change who they are, and it’s their life. They’re going to choose a path. It’s going to be okay.

And it it’s never going to look exactly how I imagined. Anyway. Even if I gave advice 24 over seven and they attempted to follow it, their path is still going to look different. So I think I’m finally to the point where I’m not white knuckling their launch, which is a new feeling.

Jen

Sure. I mean, I tip my hat and I understand why that one is losing some hold. Our our like listening community is a lot of them are about our age. And so what happens is those like kindergartners that we had, they just go ahead and graduate from high school and such. And so as they grow up we’re literally kind of forced to reckon with this idea.

That they’re future is both our, our either our credit or our fault. Pick a path you know. It’s just really not true. They are who they are and they’re going to do what they’re going to do. And it’s the thing that you said that is the most exciting. It’s going to like, be okay. You know, like, who really is going to be okay?

Amy

I’m starting to think that’s true.

Jen

Me too. I’m watching it happen. You are too. They’re just out there doing their thing.

Amy

I never would have believed that a few years ago.

Jen

In our defense. The world told us when our kids were littles that we were in charge of of their happiness, their adjustment, their choices. Like their future. They’re either way, they’re setting them up for a good. You know, I feel like we got that message, don’t you? 100%, yeah. Yeah.

Amy

So. And that every tiny choice you made throughout the day, like, could alter, you know, sort of the butterfly effect of you feed them the wrong snacks and then. Well, when they’re 27.

Jen

That’s right.

Amy

So.

Jen

That’s right. It was that red dye number five. Hey, you did like such a.

Amy

Terrifying way to raise kids, but I think I’m untangling from it. Oh. That’s good. While you.

Jen

For me, I would say what I want to say. What I want to say is that I’m doing. I’m releasing, like, the fear of. Failure. You know? But that’s not. That’s not true. I would be lying. That would be a lie. And I like to tell the truth on this show. But.

Amy

You’re thinking about it.

Jen

That counts for something. It does. Once you get on the spectrum, you’re. You’re at least there, like I can. I at least have visibility into the issue. That my worth is not defined by success. I, like, know that intellectually for sure. And, I mean, that’s not I haven’t mastered this one, but I will tell you that I really don’t have a fear anymore.

I guess I guess the best way to say is that the unknown like this need that I had for a really long time to know my future and know the outcome of whatever the thing was that I was doing. I, I really loved the idea of having the, the end of my story, a known quantity.

And I would just chart my little way, all the way until we got there. You know, like, this is, I had clear visuals of my 50th wedding anniversary journey. Yes. Like, this is how I built a life to get to this ending. That I know that I know that I’m projecting toward, that I is going to be.

I don’t have that anymore. Like that. And now what’s so bananas is to find myself in an absolutely uncharted place and loving it. Like, I love my life right now because I love all this stuff that emerged from the rubble. And at this point, I wouldn’t have any other way. So something about that has purged me of the need to know exactly how it’s all going to go.

Like this is what’s going to happen, that people still want this for me. What’s next for you? What are you going to do? What? Where are you going that people want to know the next things that are that that have plot points on the traditional story. I do not know what they are, and I don’t need to know what they are.

I really don’t.

Amy

I mean, these are sort of like sister ideas. They kind of are in that. Like, I’m releasing the need to know the exact path of my kids.

Jen

Through.

Amy

And and acknowledging that I don’t know what their end point is. Yup. While you’re acknowledging.

Jen

The same.

Amy

Thing, you don’t have control over your past or endpoint either.

Jen

Yeah, you’re right, you’re right. But I also, to your earlier point, I feel like it’s going to be okay.

Amy

It’s going to be okay. And I love that I’m even thinking about releasing huge fears that like, the consequence of that trickles down through all the little things in our life. I mean, in my 20s, I had a visceral fear of going to H-e-b without full makeup on. Oh my gosh. Like, I feel like.

Jen

Say that.

Amy

I feel like there’s like some maturity in acknowledging, what we’re actually afraid of.

Jen

You’re right.

Amy

And also releasing.

Jen

It’s good to say nothing of the amount of time and energy that gives us back. Yeah, I spent a lot of time worrying and thinking about so many things that if that is no longer a preoccupation, what can I do with my brain? What else can my brain be doing right? Like how exciting. Maybe I could do something useful.

Amy

And we’re all on it our own separate path. Yeah. Like, if you still want to wear full makeup to achieve it, that’s great for you. The number of hours I wasted thinking about it when that wasn’t right for me.

Jen

So that was so not right for you. I, I don’t even understand what you’re saying. Right? I don’t know that you. I don’t know that, Amy. That wouldn’t go to H-e-b without a full face. I don’t I’ve never seen you in a.

Amy

I mean, full face cardigan set and pearls. Listen up.

Jen

If you were trying to shock me into silence right now, mission accomplished.

Amy

And there are people who know.

Jen

That I didn’t meet that version of.

Amy

You. You didn’t.

Jen

You were way evolved past that.

Amy

And that could be a whole episode.

Jen

Okay, well, let’s just put a pin in that. Come back to full face hub. Amy. In this situation. Okay, you guys, that’s enough. That’s enough. That’s enough of this nonsense. Nonsense? There’s no other way to say it. I want to talk about our amazing guest today. Okay. Let me tell you about Tim Schreiber, in case, that doesn’t immediately ring a bell.

Tim’s a lot of things. He’s a multi-hyphenate, for sure. He’s an educator. He’s a scholar. He’s an activist. Low key. He is the nephew of John F Kennedy. No big deal. Looks just like him.

He has truly kind of exemplified the values of family, of American democracy if you will. Through it, through his work which is profound in its scope genuinely. So let me give you a little high level of what that actually is. Tim is the chairman of Special Olympics International. So that is a community of 6 million athletes, their families, the volunteers.

He’s the co-founder of unite, which is an organization that promotes national unity and solidarity across every sort of spectrum, for every sort of difference. He began his career as an educator, and Tim co-founded the collaborative for Academic Social and Emotional Learning. Like the acronym is Cosell. Cosell. This is taught currently in more than 75% of American schools.

So that was a really profound season of work. Tim got his undergrad from Yale, master’s from Catholic University, and a doctorate in education from the University of Kent, Connecticut. He’s also the author of a New York Times bestseller, which is called Fully Alive Discovering What Matters Most. Also. And he mentioned this on the show. He is he just launched a podcast called Need a List, where every week he talks with really wise and interesting people who are modeling individual and community change in their corner of the world.

And he is smart, right? He’s funny. He’s engaging. And I think his ideas are really important right now. Really, really important. And Amy and I both kind of walked away from this conversation going, that was good. That was really, really good. And I we think you’re going to find the same conclusion. And so we are excited to have Tim with us and looking forward to sharing this conversation between me and Amy and the amazing Tim Shriver.

How exciting to have Tim Shriver on the show this morning. Thanks for joining us.

Tim

I am honored to be with you.

Jen

I mean, he’s even come with this cold and it’s like smelly cat voice.

Tim

Is that it’s, that people tell me I sound better when I have a cold, so I hope I, I hope I deliver.

Jen

That’s one of those compliments that’s wrapped in kind of negative negativity. But whatever I always say at this age, I’ll take whatever I can get anyway. We’re just we’re so happy to meet you. And I want to tell you that it is a real, treat to meet someone who has done such profound and important and impactful work.

Decade after decade, for a really long time, you’ve played a long game here of good work in the world, and well done. Well done. You.

Tim

Thank you. I’ve been privileged to be able to play for a long time and privileged to be able to play, and really enormously inspiring and joyful and fulfilling circles. It’s, I’ve been on team after team of people that just make me want to get up in the morning and go, and it’s a it’s a privilege.

Jen

Oh, that’s a nice thing to say. I love that, when you kind of look back because we’re about to just jump in to the, to the meat and potatoes here. But when you look back at all the incredible circles that you’ve run in and organizations that you’ve pioneered and even just been privy to through your dad, through your family, what would you say?

Is it impossible to pick kind of a highlight?

Tim

Yes and no. I mean, I think, you know, I grew up in this, in an extraordinary world, really. My, my dad was, from the time I was just an infant. Was trying to figure out how to make the word world more peaceful and launch the Peace Corps. And, you know, from the time I was four and five years old, we’d see Peace Corps volunteers coming to our house, coming from countries all over the world, and they’d be telling stories of languages and cultures and religious rituals.

And it was just like, wow, this is amazing. And I remember when I was six, I got a little sweatsuit. It was called my Peace Corps suit, and it had the Peace Corps logo on it. And so exciting. And then, you know, when my dad would hit the road, my mother would fill up the house with young people, mostly young people with intellectual disabilities, because she wanted them to come to our house, because we had a big lawn and they could play there and they could swim in our swimming pool.

And and then she started a camp with them. And so I got to run around and it was like, you know, an amusement park of fun for a little child. So these were, really extraordinary experiences. As I look back across the time, I just thought, it’s my mom and dad, and this is what we do.

But they were inviting me into a world in which sort of the joyful, I mean, I keep. I often come back to this word, joyful jam that that there was this sense in which to make the world better, more just, more hopeful was a joyful pursuit. It wasn’t a burden. It wasn’t a responsibility. It wasn’t a, you know, a commitment you made.

So you have to keep it. You know, all that kind of talk we get from so many different corners, like, you ought to do this or, you know, you should do, you know, people get the expression is get should on all the time.

Jen

That’s right.

Tim

My house, you know, the the founding message was, there’s a there’s a joyful world out there for you to join. Get get after it. Go for it. So I, I would say, like, in some ways the simplest answer is my childhood lessons from my childhood kind of piqued my interest in, not ignoring the pain, certainly of the world or the difficulties or the violence.

But meeting it with a certain spirit of, hopefulness.

Jen

What’s nice to hear.

Amy

That is.

Jen

We we kind of came up through a bit of an evangelical space, which was the banner over our childhood. What should And so it’s so wonderful to hear you talk about engaging the world from a place of joy, an abundance and connectivity and unity. And that’s exactly what we have you on here to talk about today is not just your historical work with not just your family, but yours.

You. You’re a long time champion of unity and dignity. Obviously, your work in the special Olympics spans how, what or where are we at here? 30 some odd years.

Tim

Yeah, yeah, it’s been a long time and I’ve loved every project. Well, I haven’t loved every meeting.

Jen

Oh, no. Oh, that’s the worst. Oh, why.

Tim

You match every other part of the movement for 30 plus years.

Jen

Yeah, yeah. Amazing. We are really interested in talking to you this morning about the dignity index and kind of the current iteration of your leadership in the, in the zeitgeist right now. And it feels incredibly salient and important and relevant. And so let’s come up here first. Let’s start like 30,000ft view, because you’ve got a lot of things you can put your hand to and do.

There’s no shortage of HR meetings that you can be attending. Right. You don’t need new things.

Tim

Could

Jen

And so can you just talk? First of all, before we get granular about it, why why, why why now? Why this why does it matter? Why is this important? What? Was there something in your own personal life that was sort of combining to, to lead you into this next zip code that you’re. Yeah, that you’re planning?

Tim

Well, you know, Jen, you mentioned I spent and continue to work in the Special Olympics movement. And, you know, in the Special Olympics movement, we, there’s only one thing we need to be successful, and that is we need people willing to take a chance. We need people willing to take a chance on each other. We need Special Olympics athletes who have been discouraged or demeaned or humiliated to take a chance on trying again.

We need volunteers, those who might not understand intellectual disability, to take a chance on shooting baskets or playing flag football or running in a race. We need corporations and others who are battered by lots of different competing interests to take a chance on their communities and and invest in young people and, and people with intellectual disabilities that many people ignore.

You know, a few years ago, I was looking around the country and people were given up, and I thought to myself, that’s the only thing we can’t overcome. Like, if people give up, if people say, I don’t trust anyone, if people say, I don’t believe in the country, if people say, I don’t think the other side has, good people on it, then we’re in real trouble.

And it struck me that the Special Olympics movement had had made it possible. Makes it possible. You know, you’re in Texas, all over Texas. There’s thousands of people taking a chance. You know, this week, whenever this airs with this week, to volunteer for special and Special Olympics programs. So I know Americans will take a chance if given an opportunity.

I know that they can cross boundaries of fear and misunderstanding and, lack of knowledge. I know they can try to heal wounds and build bridges across differences. I know that it’s not like something I believe I’ve seen. Yeah. So I wanted to kind of like challenge the country. I was like, you know, I’ve been watching this in the Special Olympics movement for 30 years.

Come on, America like this is who you really are. That all that negativity and cynicism and despair about the future, that’s not us. So, you know, you say to yourself, okay, that’s a nice thing to say. What are you going to do about it? Well, that was a different problem. That’s like, okay, well, that’s nice to say, but I know how to kind of run a Special Olympics state games, like a track meet or a swimming competition or a ski race.

I don’t know how to change the country. So I set out with a lot of different people just asking questions. What could we do? To remind people of who they really are. And that’s what set me off on this idea of it revealing to people when we use so much the dignity index we built as a way of helping people see themselves.

And sometimes when you look at the dignity index and you see the scale 1 to 8, one is I dehumanize others, and four is I’m just better than you, and six is I want to listen to you and understand you. At eight is I see your dignity no matter what. And everything in between. When people started to look at this dignity index, they started to see themselves and they thought, you know, I say this all the time.

They see themselves and they want to see themselves better. They want to do better just by seeing, you know, by listening to your own voice. Sometimes when you talk about those people and the Dignity Index says, well, that’s when you when you talk about those people as being bad, that’s a three, okay. And so people go, what’s that mean?

Well, look at the you can look at the index. And, and all of a sudden you can realize, well, I don’t need to use that language to make my point. In fact, using that kind of language doesn’t help me make my point. It doesn’t actually convince anyone come to my side. If I treat people with dignity, they’re more likely to listen to me.

So, you know, it’s just a small, way of amplify saying the part of us that wants to do better, and allowing us a little bit of a tool, it’s like a little toolkit. It’s like you can pull up the dignity index out of your purse or your wallet or your pocket, or on your iPhone, and look at it and go, ooh, I could do this a little better, without losing my passion, without losing my commitment to my issues, I could still treat people with dignity.

So that’s what got us into it. It’s, It’s been fantastic. I mean, I think what I like to report to people is that I haven’t spoken. Here’s here’s something. I mean, I’ve got a small team. We’re speaking in schools, we’re speaking on university campuses, we’re speaking at businesses, we’re speaking with elected officials. We haven’t found an audience yet.

And this is extreme right, extreme left and everything in between. We haven’t found an audience yet that doesn’t look at it and go, let’s we in this room, we can do better.

Amy

Yes. It’s a it’s an incredible roadmap to healing what is ailing this country. How, how and why do you think we lost our identity as Americans? You have, a unique vantage point, sort of see the big picture. How do we get to the place where we need this toolkit so badly?

Jen

Yeah, we used to sort of have this group identity to some degree.

Tim

Yeah, yeah, I think you’re right. I think we had, at different times in the country’s history, deep divisions over policy, but broad unity over the American identity.

Jen

Yes.

Tim

And so Republicans or Democrats or rich or poor or heartland or coast, and we can have our battles, you know, which is fine. That’s a democracy. And so it’s for me, it’s supposed to allow people to express themselves and work for their opinions. That’s there’s no problem with that. But there was a weave that held us together. There was a thread that bound us into a larger whole.

And when you lose that, and we have it has been weakened. Our faith based institutions, our civic organizations, community based organizations are trusting each other, has been weakened. By what? By the algorithm. Bipartisan news, by divisive and, I dare say, you know, contempt filled political leadership. You know, all these things have come in by rapid change, you know, rapid change families, you know, your grandparents generation.

And what could we barely recognize in some cases, you know, my grandchildren’s generation.

Jen

That’s right.

Tim

They don’t. So that’s a lot to take, right? We’re we’re moving quickly out of, you know, an evangelical traditional background. Lots of things have been, you know, you’re you’re being asked if you’re an evangelical Christian or if you’re a devout or Orthodox Jew, or if you’re a progressive liberal Catholic, you’re being asked to change a lot. And when you don’t have the institutions and you have a lot of, toxins coming at you, it’s kind of like a perfect storm.

There’s not one single thing that’s made us a struggle. Yeah, but the one single thing we can do about it is recognize that contempt for each other is the problem.

And treating each other with dignity is the solution. That. That sounds overly simplified, but our premise here is that divisions, differences of opinion are not the problem. Contempt is the problem. I can differ with you and treat you with dignity. But when I differ with you and treat you with contempt, then we got a real problem. Then we tear families apart.

Then we tear communities apart. Then we have, you know, we we, we dramatically weaken the trust we all have in the country and in each other.

Jen

It’s it’s interesting to hear you say that because I take that in and go. Yeah, that makes perfect sense. You know, unless you’re just not listening. You know, we hear that kind of language right now on the Daily. That’s just the that’s normalized at this point the way. So I’m like, yeah, that’s right. That’s the contempt.

And then my, the, my the second wave clicks in and I go, we got some real issues. Like we have some real our our differences are profound. And in a lot of cases incredibly consequential. You know, we are talking about policies that harm and positions that, that just by nature do humanize and take strip rights and, you know, defund and and set us back 60 years.

And so then, then the second wave comes in and goes, is this is this practical? What do we do with this, with this idea? When it is when we inject it right into the center of something that is so consequential. Yeah. The difference for a ton of us would say, this is this is a life or death difference, right?

Tim

Well, here’s here’s what the data tells us and the passions. Maybe tell us something that the data doesn’t tell us. But let me just start with the data, okay? The data on the most divisive issues suggests that somewhere depending on the on the specific issue, somewhere between 55 and 80% of us agree on almost all of these issues.

We have policy that’s being controlled by the 5 to 10% on either end of the extreme.

Jen

That feels true. Yes.

Tim

We don’t here’s here’s here’s the secret. We don’t actually, as Americans differ very much on issues like the border.

Most Americans agree on the need for strengthened enforcement, strengthened, processes for managing strength and resources for people that live on the border and some degree of compassion for people that have lived their whole lives here from children. That’s that’s not a Tim Shriver opinion. That’s an American opinion. And there have been several pieces of major legislation over the last ten years, or 15 years, that have embodied that broad consensus in the country and almost got to a got to implementation and then failed at the last minute because people on the extremes who are very vocal and very powerful block it.

Jen

That’s right.

Tim

Right. So we don’t actually have, anywhere near as much difference of opinion as most people think on guns, for instance. How do these oh, we’re so inflamed over guns. Not most Americans. Most Americans actually agree with the second movement. I mean, again, these are broad statements I’m going to make. I’m not trying to defend a policy, but the the data suggests that most Americans believe that the Second Amendment guarantees an American’s right to own and bear arms, and that the enforcement of that right ought to be contingent upon certain standards and and credentials and mental health and previous violence and criminal record, and those kinds of things ought to be, disqualifier for the

capacity to, have that right. That’s not Tim Shriver, that’s most Americans. But we can’t get legislation in most states or at the federal level that embodies either of those. Yeah, majority opinions, because the contempt on the extremes is so dominating the conversation that our political leaders find it either in their best interest not to solve the problem or too scary to try.

Yeah.

Jen

Yeah.

Tim

So this is an it’s a good example because most people, you know, like I like to say, you know, don’t change your principles, don’t soften your principles. That’s not an American ideal. I mean, I grew up with passionate principle.

Jen

Yes you did.

Tim

I mean, we were passionate about things. And, you know, I protested in March and organized and, you know, volunteered and did what I could in my little world growing up as a kid to try to be an activist and be a change maker. That’s good. We say, don’t change your principles, just add one when you disagree. Treat other people with dignity.

That shouldn’t be that hard for people of faith. It shouldn’t be that hard for people who have no faith, but who believe deeply in tolerance. And respect for humanity shouldn’t be that hard for most of us when we think of our common humanity. But it’s not necessarily what the culture currently, encourages. So it’s something like, we got to make a little bit of an effort here.

We got to kind of band together and build a constituency for dignity and challenge our political leaders. I say to people like, when you get an email, I don’t know if either of you guys get emails from political candidates.

Jen

Sure, I can texts you. These guys are sharing my cell number as quickly as they possibly can.

Tim

I say, you know, if you like the candidate texting you, but that but the but the message is full of contempt right back.

Amy

Home.

Tim

And say I’d like I like candidate X better. Whoever it is, I want to be supportive of candidate X, but I will not give to this text message because it is filled with contempt from the other side. That’s all. If we got 20,000 Americans to do that, not 20,020,000, you bet, that those political consultants who are writing those things, those communications people, those candidates will go, wow, we got to pay attention to this.

Amy

How do you, advise that we do continue to engage and be activists and, and strive for change for that 5 to 10% to make the changes we want while still staying on the high end of the dignity index. Not even eight. Like how how can both my.

Jen

Let’s go for six.

Amy

Right? How can my words and my heart stay at 6 or 7 when when we do see so much injustice and we are so frustrated?

Tim

It’s a really good question. Amy, I guess I would say, there’s two things here. First is what’s going to work. So when you see a lot of injustice like that, what’s going to make a difference? Dehumanizing the people who you believe are guilty of that injustice is very unlikely to change.

Amy

That’s right. Right.

Tim

So if you want to change the source field of the injustice, dehumanizing people who are guilty of it is actually likely to deepen their resentment towards you and deepen their commitment to whatever they’re doing. So from a practical point of view, we have our role models here in Nelson Mandela in South Africa and Martin Luther King in our own country.

And many faith based leaders over the years who have taught us, even scriptural texts from the Christian tradition, from the Jewish tradition that remind us that mercy is actually its own transformative force field, asking people, to tell you more about where they come from, to explain their deepest positions, to understand, to listen, to be listened to deeply is actually more likely to even unseat the most malicious forms of injustice than contempt.

The second thing, though, you asked, which I heard you suggesting, is what about my feeling like I’m furious? Like, what do I do with that? I can’t stand watching X or Y or Z, do what she’s doing or what he’s doing. And, I think there is sort of, if you will, a kind of we need to kind of crack the code for how we transform our anger.

Anger is okay. It’s telling us something, right? Right. It’s good information. The question isn’t, do you feel anger? The question is, what do you do with it? Yeah. And if it’s challenging you to try to change a system, then work on changing the system with practical. And so if it’s challenging you to feel, and express, a sense of frustration and anger, express it, but you don’t have to express it by dehumanizing the other person.

You know, Doctor King said something. I’m going to botch the quote here, but I don’t carry around hatred. It’s too heavy a burden to bear.

Amy

Yes.

Tim

Right. So. So where if you think to yourself, here’s an example of injustice in this group, whatever the group is, is perpetrating it, and you carry that to your bed and you wake up with it in the morning and you take it to your breakfast table, and you take it to your place of work and you take it to the interviews.

It’s it’s a it’s too much.

Amy

It is, it is.

Tim

It’s too much. So, you know, one of the things I’m doing is that this podcast need a lift is just interviewing people who have sort of cracked the code for how do you release this energy in a, in a helpful way. So, you know, I talked to Simon Sinek on the, on the, on my podcast about you would get discouraged about the country.

So he’s like really smart on how do you take discouragement and convert it to optimism or kill, you know, like people are addicted, they’re struggling, you know, how do you do that? And she’s like, here’s how you here’s how you have developed a practice of return to your true self so you don’t get wound up in the in the pain and anger and, and projections of addiction.

And so there’s, you know, all around us, there are people who are, who are doing this, you know, who are who are transforming painful and difficult emotions, getting their needs met, but at the same time not deepening. The, the, the hatred in the culture.

Jen

That’s good. I like that you’re you’re hitting my, the button that works for me, which is what actually works. That is, North Star for me. What’s useful? I can be right all the time. Yeah, or I can really be a change agent. And those are not always the same thing. They don’t always work in this in tandem together.

And so I appreciate that pragmatic approach to look it take take your heart right out of it. If you want to just have a black little heart, what works like what’s actually going to move us forward, I wonder? This is a random question, but like, you know, our listening community is just regulars. It’s just normal, you know, normal people living normal lives.

It’s like God, right? Like it’s the normals that are going to save the day.

Tim

And we’re not far off on that, you know, elites and super kind of empowered people, so confident in.

Jen

A very normal.

Tim

People who are just trying to do one thing today to make sure they get their job done, their family, fed their car, fix their insurance payment, make sure their friends taking care of their moms or dads or children supported. I mean, you know, life is a full time job.

Jen

Yes it is.

Tim

And, you know, to try to crack the code for how to do that. Well, I think I think we need a whole revolution, not of, like, new ideas, but of new skills. That’s my pitch. Like everybody says. Well, read this book. It’ll tell you all the ideas you need to know about what to do. And that’s good.

You like quotes. You get to put a quote on your refrigerator, put a quote on your phone. Fine, I’m all for it. It’s great. But what I really want is a skill. I want something I can do every day that will make it easier for me to take life as it comes and metabolize it and turn it into the best I can love and justice and joy.

Just like I’ve watched Special Olympics mathletes do. Yeah, for 30 years. That’s what they do. So I watch them and I’m like, how do you do that? So, I think skills are really important on this. Real concrete practices

Jen

Your access to that secret sauce is no joke. I mean, that’s not just anecdotal. You’ve got decades of living proof, that this can be done and we can alchemy this in a different way. And I just I just want you to be right. I man, I want to put my chips on this idea. I, I, I want this shift so much, I, my friend Sarah, her grandfather was President Ford, and she tells stories about how things that he used to tell the kids and the grandkids that, you know, we’d come out of a, a fiery, you know, intense session, you know, tons of disagreement.

Of course, that’s that’s that’s a cornerstone of American democracy. You know, that we have robust ideas that we feel differently about and go into dialog and disagreement. But then they would leave that session and all of them across the aisle would go their dinner. They’d go have a glass of wine, they’d go on vacation. You know, it was just I wonder, I often think about that story that she tells and I’m hopeful that we may find our way back to this.

And so I have a like, let’s bring, like, all the way down to the ground kind of question, but let’s just say, let’s just say, for example, because you mentioned it earlier, we’ve got two family members. This is such a family issue, as you know. I mean, this is you’ve got it in your family.

Tim

Hell, I sure,

Jen

It’s a pretty invisible level. You know, with this is a major family divide right now. And let’s say we’ve got two family members who love each other. Of course. And they they think at least that they see the issue of gun responsibility and safety differently. So there’s the conversation. You know, it’s just this very simple grenade that many of us have drafted, many a table.

And what is language? She’s I think I’m asking you a little bit for a script. Like what? What this is what not to say. And this is maybe how you could do it differently and still without leaving behind, as you said earlier, your convictions.

Tim

Yeah. Well, I’ll give you two quick thoughts. Okay. First is if you want to talk about gun rights at the dinner table, I wouldn’t recommend it, but gun rights at the dinner table.

Jen

Protect your peace. Everybody take a different environment. Yes.

Tim

You know what? What you can talk about safely, in my view, is policies, programs and outcomes. Okay, so what’s the policy? The policy? I think let’s just say you could hypothetically. I think the policy should be there should be no restrictions on guns whatsoever. Everybody should be able to own as many guns as they want. The government has no role to play in it.

Okay. Now I’m the next person might say, well, that policy would lead to a, implementation strategy where many police officers might be at risk doing their job because they wouldn’t have any sense of where guns were and stuff like that. And the outcome of that might be more violence against police.

The other person might say, well, no, that’s the policy would not produce that, but that that implementation strategy would produce more safety and so on and so forth. So you can have that discussion the minute it goes to how dare you? Who do you think you are? You’re a fool for thinking that, do you? You’re responsible for the death of children.

You’re responsible for the ending of the American Constitution. You’re a you know, you’ve fallen in with those people, Yeah. I don’t want you in my house. All that has nothing to do with gun rights. It has nothing to do with the program, the policy or the outcome. It has to do with the frustration that comes when we don’t feel heard.

And then we lash out at the person not hearing us. So the way to disintermediate that that fear and that anger toward the person I think is very simple is just to listen more deeply. So let’s just say you’re the person who wants unfettered gun rights, okay? And I’m not, the simplest thing to do is to actually become really, really good from my point of view at listening to you, where does this come from?

Who taught you? Where did you learn it? Tell me about did your dad teach you how to shoot?

How old were you? Seven years old. Tell me about the first time. What was that like? Where did you go? What did that tell you about your dad? Now all of a sudden, I’m actually getting to the heart. I believe maybe in that case might be something completely different. But in that case, it might be getting to the heart of where this passion comes from.

And the person on the other side feels heard. It doesn’t mean I agree with them. Sure. It just means they feel heard and they’re less likely to say, how dare you get out of my house? Because I heard you and you heard me. I come from a family that’s been, victimized by gun violence. I can tell you, when I first found out about guns and it wasn’t with my dad, it was on the news.

It was terrifying. So it scares the shit out of me. That doesn’t make me right. It just tells you who I am. Okay, so now we’re having a conversation where we understand each other and we have the means to disagree about policies, programs, and outcomes in a healthy way. Again, the goal is not to make everybody agree. The goal is actually to get to the point where we as a country have a reasonably consensus based approach to managing our firearms.

I don’t mean it’s my approach or your approach. I mean, it’s a consensus approach. That’s what democracy does. Find out where the majority is to protect minority rights with constitutional protections. But try to find a way to navigate all that together. So, you know, I think it’s as important at that family table that we learn how to talk to each other, how to disagree with dignity as it is to figure out what to do about gun rights.

Yeah. Okay. So it’s my way of kind of saying there’s a new issue, you know? Right. The issue is, yes. Gun rights. Yes. Immigration. Yes. Education. Yes. Taxes. Yes. Abortion, reproductive rights, all these different things. These are big issues. They’re very important issues. I’m not saying they’re not. But there’s another one.

And that’s the contempt, outrage, addiction. And if we don’t break that addiction, we can’t solve any of the other ones.

Jen

That’s right.

Tim

So let’s have a Thanksgiving conversation about how we can listen to each other deeply so that maybe next Thanksgiving, we could talk about gun rights or reproductive rights in a healthy way.

Amy

What advice or specific tools would you, give to people who right now are feeling overwhelmed and discouraged by the political climate? Yeah, we see it. We see it clearly. We know what the problem is. What is your advice for dealing with the onslaught day to day?

Jen

So exhausting.

Tim

Well, the first the first thing is, find the source of the toxin that’s discouraging you and get rid of the toxin. So if it’s social media and you wake up in the morning and it’s 6:00 in the morning or 10:00, I don’t care what time you wake up. And the first thing you do is grab your phone before you’ve gotten out of bed.

You’re nervous, you’re biting your nails, you’re going into the brush your teeth, but you don’t even want to get that far because you want to get back in bed. Stop using the phone in the morning. Restrict it. If if you end up watching the news at night on MSNBC or Fox or anything like that, and you’re screaming at the television and you’re screaming at your husband or your wife or your kid or your brother, your sister, by the time it’s over, turn it off.

Don’t watch it anymore. You’ll get the news. Don’t worry. You’ll find out what’s going on. You don’t have to watch it. So we’ve like. The words that come into us are just like food. And if every morning you woke up and you ate a little bit of poison and it made you sick, you’d stop eating it.

So regulate the poison coming in. That’s the easiest thing for all of I mean, that’s something everyone can do. You don’t need them, you don’t need em. You don’t need Jen. You don’t need, you know, Joe Biden or Donald Trump or Kamala Harris. You can do it yourself. Become sensitive to the way in which words and language and and contempt are poisoning you and remove the source.

This is something the a community knows, but get rid of the things that lead you to want to drink. Right? And this is not this dissimilar from this. So that’s number one. Number two, I hesitate to say this because it sounds kind of preachy. It sounds like a good thing, but take a chance on a small step, with, volunteering or civic engagement.

Yeah. You know, there’s still I mean, I know churches are weaker than they used to be. Synagogues, mosques, but they’re there, and I don’t know, a single faith based community that doesn’t need volunteers for the soup kitchen, for the clothing drive, for the clean up, for the, you know, for thousands of different projects, for the the support for the family that’s lost, a family member for the fire victim.

I mean, they’re all out there and and sometimes in our Special Olympics, you know, we say, look, come out and shoot baskets. It’s not hard. Yeah. You know, shoot baskets for 20 minutes. That’s it. You know, you can say, that’s important. Yes. That’s important. It’s important for these Special Olympics athlete. It’s also important for you. So take baby steps.

You know people with significant, you know, depressive symptoms and loneliness symptoms. I’m not a clinician so I don’t want to sound preachy, but I know that if we can get to the point where we take baby steps to take a chance again on each other, we often find ourselves, was coming back that the end of that day going through that was hard.

But that was good. That made that made a difference. I felt my old self again.

Jen

Sometimes it’s so reliable.

It’s such a reliable outlet and change agent. Let me wrap it up with this.

Tim

I’m just getting started. Wrap it up for you to listen.

Jen

Look, if you’d like to stay on line with that, I’m sure we get some sound issues.

Tim

Your listeners have had enough. I just, I want to compliment you, though. No, I really do. I think it’s just fantastic. Look at what you guys have done. I mean, nobody handed this to you. Nobody told you this was going to be easy? Nobody said from birth you were going to be able to have conversations that would engage thousands and thousands of people in finding their best selves.

I mean, I’m I’m just trying to keep up with you. Launch this needle thing. But, you know, this is even the podcasting world. It’s an amazing American story.

Jen

It is sense of.

Tim

Thousands of us having conversations, sharing insights, teaching one another.

Jen

Yeah.

Tim

Anyway, yeah, good for you. Yeah. And I’m very grateful that you took the few minutes to have me on.

Jen

No, I’ve loved this conversation. And that kind of leads me into how I’d like to land the plane a little bit, which is just speaking of podcasting. You’ve got one. It’s about to hit, and I think it’s timely and I so I’d love for you. I’d love to weave together two ideas. And you mentioned it earlier in the show, but how you’re going to use your, your show to steer toward something close to Hope.

And I’d like to hear you speak on it. Like, are you hopeful? You know, you you’re you’re no dumdum, right? You’re and you’re Jen.

Tim

I’m so hopeful. And I just don’t think the story we’re told, like the discouraged American story, is not the real story of us. Everybody I’ve had on I mean, I’ve recorded several of these would be launching them, whether it’s Michael Phelps, the great, you know, Olympic athlete, Loretta Clayborn, a special Olympics athlete who grew up with nothing, whether it’s Simon Sinek or Kilian No, or father Mike Schmitz or all these, they’re all doing the work.

None of them are hating fellow. They’re fellow Americans. They’re doing the work. They’re not talking about it. They’re doing the work. They’re in the community. They’re making a difference. They’re growing hope and and and and engagement and bridge building. They’re actually and they’re everywhere. That’s right. I mean, I make a list of me, you know, I talked to my producer today.

I got 50 people and we got to hurry up like we should be doing two a week, not one a week. So I just feel like we’ve got to amplify what’s already happening. I don’t have people don’t need me to teach them. They don’t need me to tell them what to do. They just need all of us to shine a light away from the, you know, the dehumanizes and the contempt mongers and toward the people who are lighting a light.

And then we’ll say, oh my God, I didn’t realize it. Wow. Oh, yeah. Oh, here in Texas. Wow. Here in Mississippi, here in Arizona. Oh, jeez. That’s right here in Virginia. Look at that. And I just think, yeah, we need that.

Jen

I do too, I do too. Thanks for doing your part. Thanks for playing your one note of the song. It’s the best we can do. It’s all we can do.

Tim

It’s all we can do.

Jen

Which is nice. We’re not responsible for the entire score, but we each have a little note to play. And so thank you for doing your part and for being on here. Well, you just tell our community this is where to find you. This is where to follow you. You’ve got a such an impressive body of work particularly this is where to find your podcast and so need.

Tim

A list will be on Apple and Spotify and all that. Any place you find a podcast will be there waiting for you, offering you the chance to find these people who are cracking the spiritual code for wellness and hope and healing and giving us a reason to believe in us. So I hope you’ll come and listen. Give it a shot.

Listen to your fellow Americans. Listen to your fellow activists and believers and challengers and hope hopers and stuff like that. I think it’s really exciting. I’ve loved just getting started on it. That’s need a lift? Need a lift at Bigger Pictures. Us for any of you listening and thinking, oh my god, that’s special because I haven’t thought about that in a while.

Check out Special olympics.org. We’ve got volunteer opportunities by the gazillions everywhere, all over America, every village, city, town, you name it. And the work at the Dignity Index, which in some ways is trying to bring this into all of our kind of places of work and schools and our homes. You can find that at Dignity index.us.

Jen

Perfect. Well, round up all that for you guys. So you can have that in one place and follow Tim everywhere. He’s just making a dent. Making a dent. Thanks for coming on our show.

Tim

Playing my note. Thanks for having me. Thanks for making it into a symphony.

Jen

Cheering for you. Thanks, Tim.

All right, you guys, thank you for being with us today. I hope that was useful. We’re going to we did we had we scratched the surface of Tim. So if you go over to Jen hatmaker.com under the podcast tab, we will have all these links for you to Tim’s work and his socials places, but also a specific link to the dignity index.

So you can see we did not really get into the weeds on what that looks like, but I think you’ll find it so interesting. I mean, you could just do a quick look. So we’ll link to that as well. And again, I think to Tim’s point and to our point, the most useful way to implement the Dignity Index is to use it as a mirror.

How am I doing? Like where do I fall here? What is where is where am I seeing like my perspectives and language represented? And that’s literally the best we can do is manage our little corner of the world. So I’ll put all that at Jen Mirror, come under the podcast tab and thanks for being with us today and for tuning in for downloading.

Thank you for reviewing us. Thank you for, rating the show. Absolutely. Thank you for subscribing. So if you haven’t done that, that’s a that’s a five second fix wherever you listen to your podcasts. And we have more to come and we’ll see you next week.

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

The Special Olympics 

Fully Alive: Discovering What Matters Most by Tim Shriver 

The Dignity Index

Tim’s Need A Lift Podcast 

How Michael and Nicole Phelps Unlearned the Fear of Losing 

A Special Olympics Gold Medalist on Authenticity and Play: Loretta Claiborne 

Simon Sinek Believes that Idealism Belongs In the Workplace

Taking Off Our Masks through Confession with Fr. Mike Schmitz 

Guest’s Links:

Tim’s website 

Tim’s Instagram

Tim’s Twitter 

Tim’s Facebook 

Tim’s Need A Lift Podcast