[ENCORE] All Will Be Well: Lessons for Hard Times from Our Friend Amy Grant

Jen:  Hey, everyone! Welcome to an encore episode. For the love. Because. Yay! Yay for everybody! Yay for us! Yay for you. We are bringing back one of our favorite guests. And one of yours. You know her? God, you love her. It’s Amy Grant, guys. It’s Amy grant. The earth’s treasure. I love her. What’s your situation with Amy Grant?

Amy: I went and watched this original interview on the YouTube. Yeah. She is so dear and kind and, I don’t know.

Jen: Precious. Does that work?

Amy: Yeah, but not in the way we usually use that word.

Jen: I mean it nicely this time. Yeah. Yeah. She is. Like, if that is your assessment of what your ears heard or anybody else. I am here to tell you that is the dearest, most earnest human I maybe have ever met. And I’ve met her numerous times, and I, I think I just told you this, but the first time I ever met her, I just thought, I am going to crush this lovely soul with just the force of my demonstrative personality.

Amy: Yeah, I know.

Jen:  I’m like, I’ve got to dial it back. Like about 80%.

Amy: Did you?

Jen: I can’t.

Amy: Do you know she survived?

Jen: Well, I mean, she did, and she came back, but I mean, I tried and I’m I am all emote. I’m all hyperbole. You know, I’m a lot. And and then she would answer in this, like, tender, gentle voice, something lovely and grounded. And I was like, what are we doing? What are we doing here?

Amy: I felt like, you know, how you can set your podcast or your YouTube to go like 1.50 sure. Speed. Or you can slow it down. I felt even if you put her on like two times of your speed, she would still be like speaking and responding and thinking in such a calm, peaceful manner. We’re just so used to everything being so fast.

That’s true. And I actually had time to think about everything she was saying and reflect on it in the moment.

Jen: It’s a very nice compliment to her. And I would suggest that people feel that way when they listen to me, except the opposite, that I think the exact opposite, like some whiplash and and just a general sense of overwhelm. Maybe like a verbal deluge. They can.

Amy: You. Well, it’s people can adjust their speed. How what to whatever fits their brain. That’s a.

Jen: Great point. How do you think they would like to adjust their speed between me and you?

Amy: It’s it’s impossible. You just have to listen to it on regular speed. And. That’s right. You know what I did? Actually, this morning I sent an email to to someone in the team who was asking, like, how’s it going? And I said, one thing I need to work on is formulating my thoughts beforehand so that I don’t come across like the sloth at the DMV, because I like even with editing, if I’m mid-sentence like, you can’t speed it up that much, just editing process, I can’t.

Jen: It’s not like a toggle that you up and down.

Amy: I will try, I will try more to speak up and also speak faster.

Jen: Listen, you are who you are, so right. You don’t have to do any of that.

Amy: But for Amy Grant. Yeah. Who has some, like, deep, serious, beautiful things to.

Jen: Write.

Amy: Her speed is perfect.

Jen: It really is for the content. I just find myself leaning in and just like and say more. So before we bring Amy in. Let’s. And this is in her honor, which will become evident in a minute. Let’s do a little segment that I personally love. Culture shock.

We’ll play on words today because in this episode of Culture Shock, I want to talk about cancel culture. Oh, and if you have been around the Amy Grant ecosystem for any amount of time, but certainly going back to the 80s, she has been God numerous times at the center of cancel culture. This nice, precious, earnest, genuine human being has. The people have tried to cancel her so many times, so many times.

Amy: And why? What over what? I don’t understand.

Jen: This. Let’s just talk about let’s talk about that cancel culture in general. And, and and and let me say this, in my opinion, there’s some people that should 100% be canceled. And I’m not sorry. I’m not sorry.

Amy: Agreed.

Jen: Some people are horrible. Alex Jones. May cancel culture. Do its best. Right, right. That is fair. That makes sense. He’s a vile person. Amy Grant is the nicest person that has ever lived. Did you like, have visibility into. Well, pick any of her like cancelable seasons in her like beautiful life that she handled by the way with so much grace and dignity and restraint like she doesn’t get into the battles.

Amy: I mean peripherally. Yeah. Like, you know, in the early days I would see something on Entertainment Tonight, of course, and then be like, oh, poor Amy Grant. But I was on the outskirts enough that I wasn’t embroiled in it, which is why I don’t even know why she tried. Why they tried to cancel her.

Jen: Pick a thing. I mean, at first it was cause she got divorced. Hell has frozen over. Somebody got divorced and remarried. You know, that was it. And it was a clunky. She’s talked a lot about this. But that was at a time and place where if you are that big of a Christian superstar. I don’t care what the circumstances were, I don’t care.

It doesn’t matter. That just put you up on the altar. Yeah. She was one of the ones that took that on the chin really, really early. Her and Sandy. Patty. Like, oh, now there’s just so much more room for, like, complicated marriages and endings, but back then. Nope. But it even way more recently, the people tried to cancel her because she hosted a wedding for a gay couple.

Amy: So here’s here’s how I feel about cancel culture. Yeah, you are right. Some people should be canceled. Meaning we should not give them the more oxygen they should not hand them a bigger microphone. Like, let Alex Jones have his bullhorn. Sure. Like out on the public square. We live in America. Yes. Like, don’t broadcast it for him.

Jen: Yeah.

Amy: So. Yes. Individual people. We should not, give credence to the culture of it like it’s a sport now.

Jen: The cancel the culture of cancel culture. You are so right.

Amy: It’s, It’s a sport. It’s for entertainment.

Jen: Yeah.

Amy: Like. Yes. If you disagree with someone or you think someone’s harming another group, don’t buy their, I don’t know, coffeemaker or whatever. Sure, but not everybody needs to know that you switched brands. Like, just stop giving them your money. Easy and move on. And what we’ve seen over and over again is people will do it so publicly.

80 million posts and then go right back to it six months later for sure, when someone else is being canceled.

Jen: Or people join some sort of mob, a cancel mob with barely any information. They read four tweets. They got riled up. They got overstimulated with somebody else’s fury, which is very contagious. And then all of a sudden they’ve joined it. And it’s, I mean, like, you know, I’ve been at the center of that thing. So I’m familiar with the feeling.

Amy: Yeah.

Jen: Of what it feels like when a bunch of people band together and they’re entire aim is to cancel you out. It sucks. And it’s worse now. Well, okay. What do I know? I wasn’t I didn’t ever try to get canceled in the 80s like Amy. So I’d love to hear her thought on this, but in our day, we have the internet. And the internet is its own mob. And so, to this day, still, whatever I say, you know, and I’ll have a group of people online like. Well, I used to respect you, but you’re disappointing. Does people love to tell me how disappointing I am and unfollow? I’m unfollowing. I’m like, just go.

Amy: I wonder if anyone’s ever unfollowed without announcing it first.

Jen: It’s a great question. Let’s do a deep dive to see if we can find 1 or 2. Anyway, yeah, I, I I there is some sort of mature possibility in saying this person I perceive to be toxic or dangerous or harmful. And I will simply give them zero more of my time, energy, attention, dollars. I’m gonna pull out of it without joining some sort of histrionic, exaggerated mob.

Amy: Right? Yeah.

Jen: I don’t know. I mean, I say that until I decide I want to join a mob against a certain person. So let’s hold that one loosely. But I’ll tell you this. As we transition forward, who does not deserve it as Amy Grant? No, this is a good person. She is a good person and lovely. And she loves people. And when the people try to cancel her for the gay wedding, I’m like, oh, joke’s on you guys, suckers. Because one thing you don’t know is that Amy Grant has a massive, massive gay following. So you’ve messed with the wrong girl and her gays and so here she still is. Thriving. Yeah. Thriving. Beautiful. I went to her concert last year at the Paramount. Oh, And my group of friends. And I was supposed to be with them, but I had a, double. I had a trip over late on. It is are going to see her and Vince at their Christmas show at the Ryman in, like, four weeks.

Amy: No.

Jen: Yeah. Yes. And I just I’m delighted. Just to see Amy Grant at about as good as she’s ever been. As consistent as she’s always been. Like, that’s a good girl. All right. Let’s move on real quick before we bring her back on, because, she’s got so many beautiful things to say in this episode. That is just right on time for right now.

Let’s do a little Jen excellence.

All right. There’s just no way we can’t do this. There’s no way we cannot do it. See? See em. If you know, you know. And if you don’t, that stands for contemporary Christian music. And it sort of had its CCM had its heyday in, would you say 80s and 90s.

Amy: For just this moment? I didn’t know what CCM stood for. 

Jen: Oh, bless. You know, I love when sometimes you’re on the outskirts of all the things. Well, now you know about it.

Amy: I mean, I know about the genre, of course. I just didn’t know the insider lingo.

Jen: Oh, well, you know I do. Yes. So now that you know about CCM. So let’s go. 80s for sure. But to me, the heartbeat of of CCM was 90s. So I’m going to I’m going to I’m going to riff off some names and then we’re going to talk about it. Okay. I mean, obviously Amy Grant, Amy has spanned decades.

She had real staying power. And Michael W Smith kind of her cohort. That kind of came out of the 80s. But let’s go. Steven Curtis Chapman, saddle up your horse says we got a trail to blaze. Whoa. That was the soundtrack of my freshman year of college. Welcome week at Oklahoma Baptist University. Big shock. Petra. Rich Mullins, big heart. Jars of Clay, Rebecca Saint James, Third Day — I can’t count how many Third Day concerts I’ve been to. Avalon. Are these ringing a bell? Are you with me? Point of Grace? Jars of Clay? Would you say you’re with me? 20%. Is it less than 20%? I think it’s okay. This is. You get to be who you are in this moment.

Amy: I mean, I would have said before you broke out into song. I would have said, like, 10%, but clearly you’re, like, 147. Sure. Yeah. So I’m at like eight.

Jen: Okay. You’re at 8% on CCM. You didn’t know what it meant. Okay.

Amy: I was in the 80s. I had zero experience with that. Like, I knew there were some, like, Christian rapping groups. Yeah. Are they on our list?

Jen: DC talk? Yeah. Newsboys?

Amy: Yeah. I never actually listened to any of it, though.

Jen: This is so confusing. Is that because your Methodist? 

Amy: I mean, we didn’t mount a youth group every Sunday. I went to Wednesday night dinner, but we weren’t listening to music while we were there. 

Jen: Wow, you guys did not get sucked in to the…

Amy: No.

Jen: I think maybe.

Amy: I think different denominations have different levels of,

Jen: Loyalty to the complex.

Amy: Or I like to say something unkind and I won’t look at you. So, yeah, I knew that it existed, but no one I knew listened to it. And then I went to Tech.

Jen: Oh, right.

Amy: Which has….

Jen: That’s right.

Amy: I think, a more conservative evangelical base just in the town. Yeah. So then I knew kind of some of it, but I never really listened to it, although I think, one of my friends saw Jars of Clay. Yeah, the coffee shop at Quaker and 19th. One time.

Jen: What that means, is that in San Antonio, or is that in Lubbock?

Amy: In Lubbock? Like, I think she saw jars of Clay when they were. Yeah. You know, itty bitty. And, I own a Third day Christmas album, which I love.

Jen: Do you really?

Amy: I don’t know how, but I like it. It’s still in my Christmas rotation.

Jen: I could sing this from beginning to end, and I probably haven’t heard this in 25 years.

Amy: So it sounds like, But if I can’t swim after 40 days and my mind.

Jen: Is crushed by the crashing waves, lift me up. So sometime steep.

Amy: It reminds me of, vertical horizon.

Jen: I don’t know what that means.

Amy: It was just. It’s like a it’s a Dallas band that we all listened to. It kind of sounded like that. But not ages, but probably. Okay. We just didn’t realize it. Yeah. Anyway. And, also, like when Amy Grant came out with baby. Baby, she was on regular radio.

Jen: Oh. She’s crossover. That was another reason she tried to get canceled, remember? Because now she was of the world. Oh, yeah. When she did, like, crossover into, like, pop stars or like, well, she sold out and now she’s just going to be on Casey Kasem. And I guess we can’t trust her anymore.

Amy: Oh, wow. And someone else on on the list. Phillips, Craig and Dean.

Jen: Oh, yeah. That was a little adult for me.

Amy: I do that they had one song, like everyone’s gotten sucked into at one point or another. You’re adjacent to any of this. But that’s really it. Okay. Well, no, I mean.

Jen: Listen, here’s another reason why this is more in my blood. Number one, I was Baptist. This is required listening in the. See you. You were Methodist. We didn’t even know if you guys were going to heaven. Like we didn’t understand your religion. And so we weren’t sure about you guys at all. And the Baptist world we had, we would go to youth camp and get, you know, saved again.

Jen: And then as a demonstration of our loyalty to Jesus and his ways, we would burn our secular, because that was a word we’d love to say. Our secular tapes, like our, you know, our Duran Duran and our Madonnas and whatever, like Into the Fire and watch them burn. Because that’s how loyal we are to God. Like, we’re only going to listen to this music, Rebecca Saint James, that’s it for me. I’m not going to go down with like, Like a Virgin, you know what I’m saying? I know that you don’t know what I’m saying, but then we would rebuy them all, like by October. Right? But you don’t. 

Amy: I mean, it’s so wasteful.

Jen: No, I know, and then you have to work extra hours at your high school job to afford to buy them again.

I know, I think I’ve done the whole thing twice. I think I threw away a bunch of my music twice, and then, what happens is you go away from camp and then you backslide. These are all words. And if you know them, you know them. Okay. But just then, I couldn’t keep it up anymore because I just wanted to hear Wham, you know?

Jen: And I just, like, wanted to hear Janet Jackson. And then I had to rebuy them. So I’m just what I’m saying to you is then we moved into student ministry. So I.

Amy: Spent.

Jen: All of the 90s and all of them every minute of the 90s in student ministry world. So this week, I, we went to all these concerts with a bunch of teenagers. Oh, okay. Does that make more sense? Like we were harnessing their loyalty to God. Like, let’s go to, pray for rain. God, if you know, you know, I know you don’t know what that is.

Amy: I don’t know, but. Okay, whatever.

Jen: Whatever.

Amy: I, I still was like listening to U2 and finding all sorts of spiritual components in that.

Jen: Well, that’s because you were Methodists and you guys were like way out there, like in the way that you were going to get to heaven.

Amy: Also, when you were spending all that time at this student ministry building and going to concerts, I was it whatever midnight rodeo you might find out.

Jen: The house I know, and you know what? I’ll tell you this right now. You were having more fun than I was, and that’s a fact. Fair. And look, here we both are. We made it, you know.

Amy: And I’m sure all of all these. Well, I can say for a fact I do have one story. Okay, about one of the people.

Jen: On the list.

Amy: So I was with you in maybe Connecticut.

Jen: Okay. Oh, yeah.

Amy: I don’t know who all was there. Probably your mom. I can’t remember.

Jen: Okay.

Amy: Anyway we were there. You were a part of this big tour. Yeah. We had seats, but I didn’t know a lot of the speakers. So sometimes I’d be backstage, like in the green room.

Jen: Yeah.

Amy: And, like, day two, there was the nicest lady in the green room. Oh, my.

Jen: God, I don’t know where this is going. I’m trying to mind my brain.

Amy: So kind. Sit in there. Taken a break? Yeah. Like she didn’t go on for another hour. And so I just sat and visited with her. Did not know who she was from Adam. And then, I went back to my seat, and then later on, I found out it was Sandi Patty.

Jen: Oh, God. I did not know what you were going to say. Come on, man.

Amy: I just had not seen her face. But of course I knew her. Like I knew her voice. I knew about her career. I just didn’t know what she look like. And she went.

Jen: “Well, here’s this nice lady.”

Amy: She was so normal and friendly and funny. Yes, it was just someone to chat with.

Jen: I just can’t even. I don’t even know what to do.

Amy: Anyway, everyone thought I was a real dummy, but I didn’t care because I made a new friend.

Jen: I cannot text her. I’m going to text her and tell her that whole story. She is ever again one of my other absolutely favorite people out of this genre. By a factor of a million. So. Yeah. I’m happy that you got to meet Sandi Patty via Jen. Yeah, like. And I’m sorry it had zero effect on you because you never know who she was.

Just some random girl in the green room. God. Okay. All right, listen, let’s get into it. Because for all this, whatever this is tomfoolery.

We actually have a really beautiful episode to bring you and love where this is nestled in the year. Just right about this moment, we’re kind of needing this, graceful person to be in our ears. So just in case you’re like Amy and you’re like, Who’s Sandi Patty? And you don’t know who Amy Grant is? Well, we can’t assume knowledge, right? That’s true. When you just said Sandi Patty just now, I was like, where are we? Okay, let me just give you the high points. She’s had the longest, most beautiful, successful career in music.

She kind of started out super young, teenage boom, like early 80s, in contemporary Christian music, which Amy just learned is called CCM. And then sort of built this whole beautiful career in Nashville, as just, she’s just kind of a special talent. Just nobody sounded like her. She had a really specific style. Her grace and energy on stage made her like a live performance darling, too. I cannot even count how many times I have seen her live. Amy was the first artist in Christian music to have a platinum record. And then, of course, she went over to crossover success as well in top 40 music. She has six Grammy Awards. Who knows how many gospel music? Dove Awards? Three multi-platinum albums, six platinum albums and four gold albums. I mean, and this is she’s, she’s had a stunning career. Amy has had ten top 40 pop singles and 17 on the top 40 Adult contemporary chart because her crossover success was just as big. So she’s long time Nashville girl. That’s her town. They love her and she loves them. She is widely known also for her incredible philanthropy.

This is is as close to the bone to her as her own music. Because she’s good. She’s a good, good, good human. You may have heard of her husband, Vince Gill. And together, they’re just, like, one of the most fantastic couples in the whole world.

And so, having said all that, I want you to know that in this particular episode, Amy talks a little bit about, flipping the script on her own life, some unexpected health challenges. We talk about balance having. But anybody want to hear anything on that? She’s your guide, okay. And she talks a lot about facing change, whether you chose it or it chose you. And everything that she’s learned from that, the wisdom that she has gained and this conversation will leave you like it has left us, feeling empowered and feeling grateful. And so there’s nothing else to say. Let with that, please enjoy this conversation with the just, ethereal, beautiful, magnificent Amy Grant.

Jen: Absolutely delighted to welcome you back to the show, Amy. I am just always, always, always the happiest girl in the world when I get to see you. Look at you.

Amy Grant: That’s the kindest welcome.

Jen: I just mean every word of it. You are even more, more wonderful in the person than the way we even imagined all the years in which we, like, loved you from afar. And so I love when I get to report to people that once I have met our person in person, that they’re, they didn’t, like, devastate us.

Jen: They are just as good as we thought. That’s you. You, how are you doing over there as we begin to emerge from this year?

Amy Grant: I’m back in rehearsals.

Jen: Yeah.

Amy Grant: And I’m one of those people that, like, I know, 20, 20 sort of the year that never happened. In the year that changed everything. But 2020 had a lot of hidden gifts for me.

Jen: Can you talk about that a little?

Amy Grant: Yes. I think, as much as I love work, I’m so grateful that I get to go to work. You know, I think for those of us that don’t live out of a suitcase, there’s always this kind of fantasy. What if I were home all the time? What would it be like to actually be there? Sure. And, you know, really that it would you would feel like you would have to retire to ever have that experience.

And, but Covid was, I don’t know. I mean, it was it was a gift of being in one place, as a gift of, not all of it felt like a gift, you know, because a lot of it was just, like, stewing in our own juices. That’s right. And, but it was, I loved it.

Amy Grant: You know, I had heart surgery. It was a great time to recuperate. Yeah, because I’d never had that feeling like, oh, the world is just flying past me. I’m going, oh, my gosh. Like, a lot of people are recuperating from a lot things worse than this. And we’re all just kind of slowly getting our strength back. I love getting to spend extra time with our youngest child. And, you know, I’ve spaced out mothering about as far as you can. Two birds in my 20s, one of my 30s. One of my 40s. Yeah. And I was just like. I needed one nanny for 33 years.

Jen: And so really job security for her.

Amy Grant: Yeah. And, anyway, but then for Corrina to come back and we just, you know, Vince, I love him so much. He is so quiet. Yeah. And so I’m grateful for girlfriends and all that conversation, but, Yeah. Covid, I don’t know, it just, it was such a gift of being with family.

Jen: Amy, this particular series on this show is, called Flipping the Script. And I’m talking to amazing people and it’s this idea that in some way, every one of my guests in this series is, is having to flip a script in some way. So whether it is some of my guests have chosen to do that, they’ve decided this is a moment for a new story in my life. And I’m going to I’m going to chase it. I’m going to choose it. And then some of the guests, this script was flipped for them. It wasn’t necessarily their choice, wasn’t necessarily what they expected or anticipated, and yet they still found themselves having to navigate a new normal. And it’s funny because you can you easily fit in both categories.

You’ve done a lot of script flipping in your life. I mean, many, many iterations of that evolution. But this last year, if you would be willing to talk about it, I’d like to talk about your health journey because you mentioned it earlier. You lived through open heart surgery, which is a big new thing, a big news story. It’s scary at any time of year, but definitely during Covid. My goodness. I wonder if you could share a little bit about your diagnosis and what your mindset was like, maybe like prior to going into surgery and then in the weeks following, and what, what have you and are you continuing to learn here?

Amy Grant: Okay. Can I only because when you said flip the script the most life altering experience of flip the script that I ever had actually happened about ten years ago.

Jen: Okay. I’d love to hear it.

Amy Grant: Okay. And maybe, maybe it was. Maybe it was more than that. Maybe it was like 11 years ago and it was late one night. Sherry Kitchell, who I love dearly, I was married to her brother for 17 years. She had come to our house. Everybody kind of wanted to spend time with Aunt Sherry because she’s just lovely. And it was the very end of the night and I really I needed to spend time with her because I had a big cry that needed to come out. But, anyway, she’s getting ready to leave. And so surprising, she said, I have wanted so much to see your garden at night. Can we just go peek at your garden? And so, you know, I was like, I get time alone with you. And we came out to the garden and she said, how are you doing? And my parents at that time both had advanced dementia, which did not run in our family. I had hired a couple of caregivers, found out they were drugging my mom and dad.

I mean, they’re just such a anyway, all kinds of things happen. My mom had gotten picked up by the police one night, and she was not clothed properly. And like my sister and her husband had moved in with them. It was just like one disaster after another. My father was picked up on another night by a bartender going home.

I was like, feeling like I had made bad choices for them. And then, Sherry said, Can I just tell you one thing? And I said, yes. And she said, you just need to look at this as the last great lesson your parents are teaching you.

Jen: Gosh.

Amy Grant: And she said, it’s going to be lessons in creativity. Lessons and quick recovery. Fail quickly, fail frequently. Get up and keep walking. Laugh at everything. And I just was looking at it like all the things that were changed, all the things it was different. All the loss because I was just looking at that. They were not who they used to be. And in that one phrase of hers, when she said, it’s like suddenly it had purpose. Wow, this is the last great lesson your parents will teach you. And I mean, my tears dried up and I was like, dang, I’m not going to. What am I doing right now? I think I’m just wallowing in I’m failing. I’m failing them. They’re failing. And I mean, and that is a conversation that needs to be had some time, but it’s an energy suck. You’re right. And when she said that, it was like, oh my gosh. And flipping that script was, you know, and it continued to be a long script. My father lived for years after that, but every time it was like, there are hidden gifts in this.

And one of them, you know, for my dad, he lost all communication skills by the end and really no eye contact. And I just remember because I’m married to a man who’s quiet there times I used to be like, come on, ask me more questions. What’s up with you? You know, aren’t you curious about what I’m doing? We should be delving into each other’s souls anyway. But my dad. I would sit at a little table across from him and he would, like, take my hand, like, almost as though I was not connected. And he would just rub it and look at my fingers. And then sometimes he would just, like, move my hand with his. And you know what? I wasn’t looking at him going, why aren’t you asking me more questions?  Like I learned the gift of just being there.

Jen: Okay, so precious.

Amy Grant: And that continues. Now it does. It’s like everybody brings different things to the table, and you can’t look at somebody that, you know, rapid fire conversation or investigative or deep conversation might not be their comfort zone, but there are other things that are. And I learned that lesson from my dad after he couldn’t talk anymore. And so, anyway, and so that whole long journey has just made me realize there are, there are hidden gifts in everything.

Amy Grant: And don’t look way down the road because you really only have enough to get through today, whatever it is. But the surprise of today is the off chance conversation that you have with the person bagging your groceries, and suddenly they’re making you laugh about something, and then the person in traffic that let you in and like, kind of, I don’t know, it’s just like you sort of go, hey, we are actually all in this together.

Jen: I’m so happy that you told that story. And that was, of course, unique to your. And also yay and Sherry. Golly, what a little bit of wisdom she just dropped. Thanks for sharing it. Because that and that’s unique to you. But as you’re talking, my brain is just churning, thinking about how true that has been in my life this last year.

You and I were talking before we started recording, but, you know, I had a lot of loss this year that I didn’t see coming. And I definitely didn’t expect I did not write it into my script. But now, a year later, undeniably, I can see how it it’s been a teacher and I didn’t even know the little hidden gifts that would be in there.

I couldn’t fathom them. I couldn’t even envision them. Everything just felt so, like, dark and sad. And that was all I was choosing to see as well. So having to sort of practice this mindfulness that you just beautifully described about just what ordinary, beautiful thing is happening in any given day and what remains, what I’ve learned, what I’ve discovered, what rose up in me that I didn’t know I had. Yes. Yeah. Yes. Yeah. It’s that’s a beautiful perspective change. And I love that for the whole conversation of of flipping a script, whether we choose it or it shows us, either way, we get to really decide how we’re going to perceive it and welcome it even, or embrace it, metabolize it into something wonderful. So that’s always it’s just something so lovely, I love that. Thanks for that. I will not forget Aunt Sherry’s. A bit of wisdom there.

Can you. We are so. I’m so happy to see you so healthy and well and beautiful after such a major surgery. Were you scared? Were you surprised? How did you begin to put the pieces into place to sort of weather this particular storm?

Amy Grant: Well, I would say for the last year I had noticed some things about my heart that were, you know, I’ll take care of that later. I’ll take care of that later. Yeah. Anyway. But like, yeah, I don’t know, you know, just, we’re all, you know, we’re all used to how we function and. Yeah. Anyway, but when I went to the doctor with Vince to get the results of his task because he was approaching the age his father died.

And, Anyway, you know, Vince loves food. He’s not a gym rat. Sure. We kind of both showed up. Like, what’s there going to say? And he was great. Yeah, yeah. I mean, Vince is one of those people that, you know, he’s defying the odds. His arteries are clear. And the doctor just gave him a great report anyway.

Jen: Fantastic.

Amy Grant: Yeah. And so and then he turned and said, hey, we should check you out. And we were right in the middle of Christmas shows, and I was like, I don’t have time. I don’t think it’s a treadmill test. And that sounds awful to me anyway. So but then I did the tests and he came back, you know, as they came in.

That looks good. That looks good. That looks good. And then a text call me as soon as you wake up.

Jen: Oh, gosh.

Amy Grant: And I called in here.

Jen: Oh I felt that my stomach.

Amy Grant: Yeah. And he said you we uncovered a birth defect that is incompatible with longevity. And so.

Jen: Oh my gosh, that’s how he said it.

Amy Grant: Oh I mean, I can’t remember exactly. That’s pretty scary. But he, And so yeah, he, he told Vince it’s fine, fine, fine. Catastrophic. And the window, we need to get this fixed like this year and so but the way my mind works is I just didn’t I enjoy being in the day. I’m in, you know, and so I didn’t really let myself think about it.

You know, I had a few tests, but it wasn’t till I was using that blue scrub the night before, you know, and, and I was nervous the day off. But then they came in with that, you know, float away drug. And I just chose to trust the good hands that I was in. And the bigger hands.

And, you know, at some point I did go. If I don’t wake up from this, if this is the end. I am so grateful for this life I’ve had.

And, And I have lost. I’ve lost several good friends to different things. But in my mind, all premature deaths. And I remember one of my good friends, she was a musician, Ruth McGinnis, and she got a bad cancer diagnosis. And anyway. But I remember her taking a walk with me one time and she said, oh my gosh, if I could take everything I have learned from this gift of cancer, if I could put it into a capsule and make you swallow it right here in front of me.

And she said, I’m not. I mean, the illness, she said, this is awful, you know. And she would describe in gory detail all the things that she would have to navigate with her body. But, but she just said it, you know, it’s changed the way I look at everything. Everything is a gift. Everything’s a gift. And, you know, the morning she died, I was on my way to sing part of a Disney project from which I was fired because I don’t have a Disney princess voice on it.

But I went to her house that morning, and she was just real fan. And I remember she just opened up the blanket on her bed, just her little bare naked self. And I just crawled over her and beside her. And, you know, I just.

She was such a great friend. And we just hung out. It was like well. This is, this is how your story goes. Yeah. And, but she is just so present with me and she was the first person I ever whispered to months before I pursued a divorce. In my first marriage, she was the first person that I said, I don’t feel at home within myself.

The within my life. I don’t.

Jen: She tell you?

Amy Grant: I would be making up the script right now. That was a long time ago. But I remember that she would say. I mean, she taught me such basic lessons in respect. She was a musician, but I met her because she was a personal trainer. And so, like, the first day we worked out, she showed up, you know, I had on sweats.

I had had my third child in five years, and I was like, okay. And, you know, we talked about life. And she said, the most important thing is for you to experience a growing, a growing respect toward yourself.

Jen: I love that.

Amy Grant: And she said being healthy is all about balance. Like she worked with me in How to Stand. I think we did most workouts with like a 3 pound weight. And she said, this is not about slinging around the big weight. It’s about balance in every area, balanced balance. And then, you know, so we’re talking, you know, eight hours every week.

And so by the time I said I. I feel unbalanced in parts of my life, you know. And she was just there to be a witness and, you know, so I think about when she was diagnosed and what her husband said was, this is her journey to walk, and we can come alongside of her and support her every way that we know how.

But it it’s her journey. And that last day when I was with her and she said, I am so tired. Yeah, I’m just ready to be done with this. And it was like, you know, but those messages like, like every day I wake up and if what hits me in the in a conversation or in an interaction or is, you know, frustration or helplessness, all of the awareness of our faulty, frail interactions in our, in our country, all the ways that we have failed each other across racial lines, across socioeconomic lines, all those things and know as we just came to terms with that in ourselves, I mean, to me, that.

I was just like, wow, I have my hands on my own wheel. I can’t steer anybody else’s opinion. I can’t steer anybody else’s choices. But I got to own mine. Oh, I’ve got to own mine and and steer my life differently, steer my thoughts differently. And, you know, so,

Jen: That’s harder than it sounds. It’s taken me the majority of my adult life to come to terms with the fact that my hands are on my steering wheel and it’s mine to do. It’s mine to drive. It’s easier, it’s lazier, it requires less tension to sort of look externally and just say, well, this is because you did this, or this is because you chose that, or I don’t like how any of you are driving.

I wish everybody else would drive better. Everybody behaves, you know, and yeah, you know, or this happened to me, and sometimes in the in a lot of ways, you know, that is true. Things do happen to us and we are on the receiving end of other people’s choices, to be sure. But then still, at the end of the day, it’s still my steering wheel to figure out what to do next and what to do with it and where to go.

And, you know, when you said earlier to your friend, I feel out of balance in this one area of my life, I’ve used the term just out of alignment, and so it’s still mine to come into alignment. Regardless of the reason, I was dis aligned. And a lot of times it’s my own. And I appreciate you saying between your story and your friend story, that sometimes sometimes this like the catalyst for that kind of work and growth and evolution is, is around our health.

That’s just true. I mean, like, I can’t count how many stories I’m cold in my little hands from my own personal people and my big community at large, where something in the health, in a health scare or even something terminal like cancer is the thing. That is the thing when all of a sudden you see everything differently, you see all of life differently.

This last year, I’ve talked to my community about the same thing, but this last year was so catastrophically hard and sad. And so I found myself also having health issues for the first time in my life. You know, my doctor’s like you’re you’re this blood pressure. It’s not sustainable. Like you’re in trouble. This is a dangerous. And I’m like, no, I don’t have high blood pressure.

He’s like you do. You do have high blood pressure. Like I take it again. I never had it before. And, and and all this anxiety and fear and panic that has come with it, we all knew to me. I hate every bit of it, but it has taught me something that you just said, which is it is time to respect myself.

I just thought I’ll just power through because I do that and I can do that. I’ve always been able to do that. And my body has kind of like held up a stop sign, like the buck stops here, girl. Like you’ve reached the outer limits of your threshold. Of what power through means. And I’m grateful sometimes to our bodies for telling us that, you know, for throwing up a roadblock, for saying that your attention has to be redirected right here, right here for a while.

And I’m sure you found that to be true. I mean, of course, your recovery happened during Covid, which automatically kind of forced you into a quieter, more still place. But I’d love to hear what else you discovered about essentially being forced into stillness. And you probably had to shut down, several avenues and channels and all the things that you juggle and, put your hand to.

What did that look like to you? Did those decisions come easy? Did you know right away all this gets triaged? These are the things I’ll delegate, and these are the things I hold. Or did you kind of have to pick your way through that discernment process?

Amy Grant: Oh,

Amy Grant: That’s all good questions.

Jen:  You just pick whichever one you want. I put about 40 in there, so.

Amy Grant: Well, first off, a gift of being in the hospital was meeting the head ICU nurse who came to my room the night after surgery and said, you are not assigned to me, but I just wanted to tell you we got a great team here, and we’re here to take care of everyone. And I hope you just let us know.

And he was so kind. He just was like, he’s probably my age, but such a big presence. Yeah. He just like sunshine walked in the room. I love that. And I was kind of curious about the rising Covid cases. Sure. And he said, we’re starting to see that here. It’s not the wave that we anticipate, but it’s showing up a little bit.

So this was June of 2020. And, you know, by Christmas he had passed away. He contracted Covid serving the people in the hospital. Yeah. Gosh. And so, anyway, I had, I don’t know why that came to me except for this. You know, life is you don’t somebody that seems like they’re in a compromised position physically, emotionally, whatever you don’t, that script can flip very quickly.

Jen:  You’re right.

Amy Grant: But, mostly what I, I just felt like the whole world shut down. I didn’t feel like I was having to decide what shut down. You know, in the touring world, it was the first thing to go, the last thing to come back. And we have, We just we have, like, a small community that operates out of our home. That’s been a part of my life my entire adult life. And, and for all of the weeks that nobody was here except for Vince and me and our daughter Karina, what I really felt was you have a lot of people who help keep everything going. I’m the beneficiary of, loving, helpful, the community that that helps me get everything accomplished. And, I just have never I’ve never worked that hard doing all of the details. It must be like, you know, the traveling father that comes home on the weekends and plays with the kids and leaves again, and then the mother leaves for a week and he’s like, oh my God.

Jen: Honestly? Yeah.

Amy Grant: I think I just never realized how many people helped me do what I do. And so, yeah, that awareness, another way of saying that is I came face to face with all of my true limitations. And so my, so my way of being easy on myself is to say, don’t try to do so much.

Jen:  Yeah.

Amy Grant: And. Yeah.

Jen:  Are you good at that or bad at that. That’s doing too much.

Amy Grant: But I think I do too much. But I have good energy and I’m interested in a lot of things. Yeah. You know, and I just having a purpose makes me feel good about the day. Yeah. And it I like I actually I don’t know how this sounds, but I, I like doing things that I can see have a palpable impact on other people in a helpful way.

So it’s amazing.

Jen: And I know that’s a lot of my motivation too. And that’s I think sometimes for at least for me, at least one of the reasons why sometimes I struggle to decide what stays and what goes, because I virtually don’t have any opportunities on my plate. Are any ideas percolating that percolating? My brain that are bad? Like, everything is good.

Everything is for someone else’s good or for the community, or it’s something exciting to be a part of. Or it’s like a collaboration that I really respect. So I it’s almost I have too many good things, to choose from, which makes it harder because they’re not so obviously on their face. Like, well, this is a terrible opportunity.

And so I my default valve is a yes. And so I’m learning I’m learning to toggle that down. I think when I was younger, I thought if I don’t say yes to everything, it’ll all stop. It’ll just all dry up. It won’t keep coming. You know. It’s my. Yes. Is that kind of keep the energy moving forward.

Jen: But I found that that’s not true at all. That was just a fake story that I, I it was just a scarcity mindset. And so I’m, I’m learning.

Amy Grant: That for.

Jen:  Sure, but. Yeah. So this is I, I love to kind of hear that you’re, you’re back in the studio. How do you feel how do you feel? How’s your recovery? I’ve never had heart surgery. I don’t know how it feels in your body.

Amy Grant: Yeah, well, I had to. I had to sort of be still for a long time. Yeah. Like from January until the surgery in June. He was like, don’t go run. Just kind of lay low. So I didn’t I mean, I didn’t just sit there. Yeah. But I didn’t do things that would, I would normally do. Yeah. Hey, let’s go on a bike ride.

Hey, let’s go do this. Hey. Let’s go. And so and then after they say 12 to 14 weeks of recovery, I’ve truly felt like I was in the worst shape had ever been in my whole life. I was like, I have no muscle like none. So, and it takes a while to get that back again. So, right now, just enjoying feeling my stamina come back, you know, and, and that, you know, singing is a pretty physical job.

Jen: Totally.

Amy Grant: And so you don’t think about it, but, so I’m watching that come back and just trying to be patient with myself and, Yeah, that’s.

Jen: True. I didn’t think about that. Has this affected kind of like your breath capacity and in addition to your stamina, just be able to power through a two hour set or whatever it is?

Amy Grant: Yeah. I’m getting there. Yeah. Yeah, I’m getting there. But, Yeah, but just in general, I feel better. Yeah. I feel like, you know, I was like a machine that had an engine that had a lot of stops and starts and clunks and all that kind of stuff that’s gone.

Jen:  That’s great.

Amy Grant: It the engine’s purring, but, you know, the rest of the car needs a tune up. Yeah.

Jen:  Yeah. So you’re in the studio right now. What are you working on? What are you are you writing new things? What are you doing?

Amy Grant:  Not really. No. At this point, I am asked, you know. Hey, will you be a part of this tribute record? Will you sing a song on this project? And, you know, so I’m just, kind of ticking off, not a long list, but people who’ve asked me to participate on their projects and, And then next week, I’m back in full time band rehearsals, and then it’ll just be the road after that until until January 1st.

Jen:  So, you know, the rhythm, you know, the road rhythm. It’ll probably be nice to be back. We’ve missed each other. Like, I’m so hungry to be in a room full of people, having a shared experience, like listening to music together, being in a conference setting together. It’s, I think that’s one lovely gift that the pandemic has given most of us.

Yeah. Absolute new appreciation for what it means to be together. Yeah. And, I’m so excited for you. Okay. And I’m going to ask you the last couple questions, and I’m kind of asking all my guests in the Flip the Script series this. And so just pop your head quick. For you, what is maybe one of the most important things that you get out of switching things up ever once in a while, when you do it on purpose.

Amy Grant: Oh, always seeing things from a different perspective. You know, flipping this, flipping it could mean just asking somebody else. How do you see this? What would you do? Yeah. Especially somebody. Yeah, I just yeah. Hey, what does this look like from your vantage point? I mean, the other day, I was leaving the farm. I met a young woman years ago, and we’ve. We’ve only been in the same space five times. But she was visiting from New York, and, And I said, hey, well, hey, let’s meet out at our farm. She wanted to do that. We have a short amount of time, and, I just find her beautiful, and I wanted to hear about her life. And then we’re leaving the farm, and there are four steer, you know, cows in the driveway. Okay, she’s in the car in front of me, so I’m like, stop. Don’t push those out onto the road. Would you mind. Would you mind just stopping right where you are? And I’m going to call somebody to come in from the other way so we can kind of corral these animals. Okay? And she said, can I come sit in your car? And I said, yes. And she did. Anyway, her name is Chelsea. She’s a beautiful young black woman. We had had our visit and, and we had unexpected time because there were animals in the road. And, and I said, what was like for you being in school when you were a kid? And she said, you know, I was just one of very few, black kids in my school, mostly white, two. And I’ve wondered if I ever have children. Would I do that to them? I don’t know. And what I appreciated about that, when I left that conversation, I thought, I’m grateful for the big script switch that we’ve all experienced of saying, ask different questions. Ask different questions. And anyway, right. So yeah, I think, you know, the next step, the next opportunity, the next enlightenment, the next everything for all of us is within reach. It always has been. 

Jen:  You know positive.

Amy Grant: Yeah I yeah.

Jen: I love that, you know, I’m right there with you. I’m right in line with that. I love that answer. How about this thing. So what, familiar or comfortable or comforting thing or thought whatever do you hang on to when you are in the upside down part of a flip? When it’s kind of like the the free fall?

And you’re not to the other side of it. Yeah. You’re not to the solution. You’re not to what comes after kind of in the upheaval. What do you hang on to that keeps you centered. It keeps you calm, that carries you through to the other side.

Amy Grant: I guess the mantra in my head is, And all will be, well, all manner of things will be well, and, and but what I do, is I usually go outside and I usually, like, lie down near a tree and look up. We do. I do that all the time. I’ve got one of those round swings and it’s big enough.

It can, like, cradle the back of my head and get to the top of my legs, you know, so I can actually relax. Totally. And that’s more. I do that more than anything, you know? I just go and look up in a tree and go. Everyone is different. There’s no. There’s no pattern. And, and and clearly there’s a pattern everywhere.

When I feel like I can’t see the pattern in my life, I can’t see, you know, it’s just like it’s all will be well. And then I just get out in nature. Really.

Jen: My therapist taught me to do that. And she said, if you can take your shoes off, let’s get your feet like in the grass, in the ground, literally get grounded, literally. And don’t force it. Just let it be. It’s let it do what it does. That’s it. Oh Molly okay. And now I’m a person who was under the tree with my bare feet.

Jen:  And it’s like a miracle.

Amy Grant: It changes you.

Jen: It does what it does.

Amy Grant: Yeah it really does what it does.

Jen: And all of a sudden it’s been 45 minutes and I’m just looking at leaves and I’m looking at the clouds and, my, I’ve got somehow back into my body and I can hear things again and I can feel it all. And by golly, if that is not an actual really good practice for me.

Amy Grant: Yeah. And here’s something else. Like with birdsong you hear birdsong. And always what I come away from those moments is going if you’re going I don’t know my purpose, I failed unless I ha to go, I don’t know if there’s any. I mean we are designed to be appreciators and to notice and to. Yeah. And I don’t know why that felt so like such an enlightened thing to say but awareness of the beauty around us.

Jen: Absolutely. Because we’re designed to be appreciated, which is I love that you just said that word. I won’t forget that appreciating things does bring us back into alignment. It does, it does. There’s something whole and intentional about living like that that we were probably always meant to. Okay. And here’s the last one. I asked you this the last time we were in the show, and I should have heard that.

I don’t remember what you said last time. I think what you said the last time you were on the show was you were enjoying the last little bit before your youngest was flying the coop. But the question is, and it can be whatever it is right now can be earnest or it can be silly. It doesn’t matter. Okay.

Jen:  What is saving your life right now?

Amy Grant: Oh, this is not today. I’ve kind of taken a little break from this, but a game changer for me from my birthday last November until the beginning of the summer, was this little book that my sister gave me called the Five Minute Journal.

Jen: Okay.

Amy Grant: It’s put out by a company called Intelligent Change. And, anyway, so it’s all about brain priming. And that when, when our brains brains are primed for something and, you know, I’m all into brain work, I have a whole other career where I’m invested in the brain company for noninvasive healing. We’ll talk about that some other time. You and so what I continue to say is, how am I how am I priming my brain to experience this day and this journal? I mean, it’s so quick. It really takes about two minutes. I could keep it in the bathroom and it’s just little short lines that you fill in in the morning and you fill out at night. But it’s an exercise in priming your brain to see the good and and the thing. The real shocker for me is, and they kind of explain how to do it.

But at the end of the of every day, it’s just three lines. Excuse me, four lines. What what May 3rd amazing things that happen today and inevitably, the amazing thing is not something big. It’s not I reach that goal. The scale number said.

Jen: Lower.

Amy Grant: Than yesterday. You know what it is? It’d be like, I thought about my daughter right at the minute that she was on her way to some some, and I joined her. This song came on the radio. The person in the checkout line was so kind to me. Like when you really have to stop and go. Three things that made today amazing.

And guess what? The stuff that makes the day amazing is like small, it’s small. And then when you think about them at the end of the day, and the last thing says, what would you have done differently? And you have to say in present tense, as though you had done it the right way. And so like if and I can’t explain it, but it makes you rather than beating yourself up, why didn’t I ask my friend about her children?

I just went on and on and on about something, and then, then the time has gone instead to right? I, I so appreciate being part of my friend’s life and her children matter to me. I ask her about them frequently. And I’m telling you, you prime your brain like that because beating yourself up as just goes nowhere.

Jen: You’re right.

Amy Grant: But my sister gave me that book and she said, my son is carrying this around like a Bible. And she said, I’m giving my one copy to you, and if you’ll give me your address, they’re at your main hideaway. I will put it in the mail today.

Jen:  Okay. Are you serious? Because I am all the way intrigued. I’m hanging on your every word right now, thinking about this tiny little exercise that can make monumental change.

Amy Grant: It’s tiny. It is so tiny. And to me, anything that’s like a tiny, tiny change that makes a monumental change, that’s hope has entered the room. You’re right. With flying colors. So that’s been the yeah. The five Minute journal and what’s going on.

Jen:  It’s way too easy right. Oh we saved that for the end. That’s so great. I like that because that type of practice and possibility is available to anybody. That’s not expensive. It’s not it doesn’t take too much time. You don’t have to be in an elite space to have access to that kind of healing or leadership.

So that’s fantastic. Thank you for that. Well, you know, I am just so happy to see you, Amy. I’m so happy that you’re recovered. And that you’re about to hit the road again. I, number one in line for loving you for all of our days. So, so, you know, when I got to meet you at Wild Goose a few years ago, I just about died. You know, I just about died. I just thought I need to be resuscitated. That don’t know if I can recover. And then just to have known you ever since. It’s, like, so special. So thanks for coming on the show and just being who you are. You’re gentle. Like a calming way. Makes me want to lay my head in your lap and just take a nap.

Jen: I love it so much. I love you, thank you.

Amy Grant: I love you too. You, my little sister, are a force of nature.

Jen:  Thank you.

Amy Grant: Yeah, it takes all kinds. It sure does.

Jen: That’s great. Okay, well, until next time. Enticing. I hope the next time is in person. And so if you’re tour bus heads toward Texas, I’ll see you there. Awesome. Thank you. See you, my friend.

All right. We hope that that served you well. That that was something you were so happy that you spent an hour downloading into your brain. I know I am. I know, Amy, is this is this sort of content that feels important right now and nourishing and nurturing and positive and useful. And I am starved for more of it.

So, absolutely. Thanks for listening. Thanks for sharing this episode. This is a good one to send around to your crew, and if you haven’t already subscribed to the show, just do it. That’ll probably take you five seconds. Wherever you listen to podcast, just hit follow or add. That’s about it. And it will show up for you every single week.

And we have some really lovely episodes from now to the end of the year, so you’re not going to miss any of them at all. And we sure love you. And we thank you for being here and being in this community. We’ll see you next week.

Amy: Thank you all for listening.

 

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

Jen at the Amy Grant concert in Austin 2023

Amy Grant & Vince Gill Christmas show at the Ryman

Michael W. Smith

Stephen Curtis Chapman

Rich Mullins

Jars of Clay

DC Talk

Newsboys

Third Day

Philips, Craig & Dean

Rebecca St. James

Sandi Patty

Vince Gill

Amy Grant – Baby, Baby

The Five Minute Journal

Wild Goose Festival

When Amy Grant and Jen met at Wild Goose in 2018