Yvette Nicole Brown: Black women and the importance of joy and sisterhood
“Instead of me showing you my pain, I’m going to use my joy as my strength and I’m going to dance and laugh through this thing.” – Yvette Nicole Brown
Episode 10
In this engaging conversation, actress, activist, and all-around beautiful human, Yvette Nicole Brown, gives us a lesson on the fundamental importance of joy, the blessings of caregiving, and the significance of community support. Through an exploration of Yvettes’ career, first in the music business, and now in the entertainment industry, she and Jen and Amy discuss the many challenges that face black women today while also talking about one of black women’s greatest superpowers – the sisterhood that exists among them. They lean into how white women can learn to harness that power in their relationships, too, and the things that can be done to support their sisters of color right now. Yvette also reflects on her personal life as a devoted caregiver, and dishes for a moment about the beauty of finding love in your late 50s.
Amy: Good morning. Hello. Hi. Hi. How are you?
Jen: I am good. How are you? I’m well. You’re okay? Well, I mean, you’re okay.
Amy: I’m sure we’ll have another whole episode about this at some point, but I have chronic fatigue. Yeah. Kind of been in a flare. It just means I have, like, instead of four batteries in my Walkman, I have two batteries, and, they’re almost they’re almost dead, but.
Jen: They’re on the Fritz.
Amy: I’m on the Fritz. But I’m okay for right this second.
Jen: You’re okay for the second? Yeah. And then it will recharge. You’ll sure you’ll get back out of your flare. I’m glad that you were. You had enough juice, at least for this episode because we’ve got a really like, well, pretty awesome guest today. We actually just finished the interview so we’re still buzzing from it. But, I’ll just tell you we have a very beloved actress. Actor? The actresses I think are actresses now. Everybody’s an actor.
Amy: Right? I think that’s correct.
Jen: I don’t think we say actress anymore. Actor. Okay. There we go. That was on a beloved sitcom from 2009 to 2015, which is a really long run for any show.
So before we get into this interview with her that you’re going to love, and it’s also delightfully surprising to you in a good way. That brings us to a very, very important topic that we can drop right into GenXcellence.
This is what I’d like us to ponder. Okay. Starting with you. We’re going to do a little Seinfeld versus Friend. Okay? Okay. And now there’s many, many angles we can take care of. Let’s start with high level feelings of just your preference. It’s actually hard. Yeah.
Amy: It’s truly apples and oranges. Truly. I watched both series. Okay, but I couldn’t even tell you if they were airing at exactly the same time. Like, I don’t know what the overlap is. But I would say at the time, I was Team Seinfeld.
Jen: Okay. Yeah. I think the overlap was real. A Venn diagram was a huge crossover.
Amy: Yeah.
Jen: I started watching Friends in college. That is when we all tried to do Rachel’s hair in my junior year of college. So that was ’94.
Amy: Yes. Same. Maybe ’95 ahead of you. But I do remember the Rachel haircut, and I was still in Lubbock, so. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah. Yeah. So that was like, early to mid ’90s is when it started and I’m pretty sure. Well guess what. We have a computer on our laps.
When did Seinfeld air?
’89. So Seinfeld preceded.
I know it ended, maybe it was even ’98 married because I remember the finale, which then I think with the finale of Seinfeld. Then it shifted and I became more of Team Friends.
Amy: Oh, I thought I identified with Seinfeld’s humor. Like, I just like the edge of it. Yes. And then the finale was super disappointing and pointed out that they’re actually not the nicest people at all.
Jen: So true. I did not love the finale.
Amy: I thought it was funny before, and then suddenly I was like, oh, that behavior is not funny. It’s actually pretty.
Jen: Terrible. I watch Seinfeld right now. It’s like one of my night shows for me. So let’s put this up on the debate block. Which one do you think in your opinion, has, I guess, aged better?
Amy: I think culturally, generationally, I think friends might have a longer lifetime run. Like, I know so many Gen Z’s that watch Friends.
Jen: Oh, yeah. That’s true.
Amy: But I still like Seinfeld.
Jen: Do you know when Seinfeld first came out, I remember watching the first, let’s say, three episodes or something, thinking. I simply do not get this. Like, is this funny? Is this supposed to be funny? They’re so weird and also a little unlikable. And then it, like, cut, like, I also think they hit their stride, like the first season.
If you go back and watch the first season, they’re not in the pocket like none of their characters are fully developed. Jerry breaks every third sentence. Like he’s, you know, he’s constantly, like, laughing at everybody. He can’t hold a straight face. And Kramer’s not as wild as he becomes. And it’s really season two. I think they had it.
But, to me, I’ll still watch it right now in my bed at nighttime and go for it. It’s so absurd.
Amy: It’s so absurd and funny, even though they’re mean. But I really did not realize that there was this undercurrent of unkindness until the finale.
Jen: For real? Yeah, there’s such terrible people all throughout the nine seasons. Just did it miss you?
Amy: Yeah, because I just like that kind of humor. Well, yeah.
Jen: Exactly. But it wasn’t lost on me. These are terrible people making terrible choices. They don’t care. But that’s why it was hilarious.
Amy: I would, even though I said earlier, after the finale, I became more team friends. Seinfeld lives in my brain, more like.
Jen: Oh, that’s a good way to think of it.
Amy: Like, we joke a lot using Seinfeld quotes and tropes and like, George’s giant wallet and of course, we all.
Jen: Say the trash. I mean, it’s endless.
Amy: The number of times I have to explain to people like, I, I will take the dessert off the top of the trash can if you throw it away in front of me, like my friends wait to throw food away until I leave. Just because they know. Well, I mean, I don’t eat trash.
Jen: But I mean, if it’s on top of the trash per episode, what’s the problem? There’s no problem. I don’t have a problem with it, I really don’t. I’m not precious about food at all. Okay. Well, I will also pledge allegiance to Friends, too. We both seem to like Seinfeld a little better. That’s how we’re talking right now.
Amy: It seems like it.
Jen: I think I was prepared to say Friends, but I think now upon hindsight everything about Seinfeld was, it was just a standalone, absolutely nothing like it. Where with Friends we had other ensemble casts. We had what? I mean, we both are, but we had other like, you know, groups that that age group who were kind of cute and aspirational. But Seinfeld was just a continuation out of an insane Larry David brain.
Amy: I feel Friends is more of a sitcom. Yeah.
Jen: Yeah, I guess so. More like a classic, traditional sort of Seinfeld.
Amy: It’s own thing. But I loved Friends.
Jen: Oh, I did too. Don’t get me wrong. So me and my roommates in college, our senior year. So at the time, even though I was married, Brandon was in the Army, so he was gone for six months for like boot camp or whatever, all that is. So I lived with my two best friends my senior year, and we had this little house and we instituted must-see TV on Thursday. Remember, that was the genesis of Must See TV. Yes. And it was like, let’s see. Let me see. There were a couple of rotating shows like, Suddenly Susan, Caroline in the City. Do you remember this? Yes. But then it was friends. Seinfeld, I think Frasier. And then 9:00 was air, and we would watch TV from 7 to 11, and we had a big dinner, which was disastrous. None of us knew how to cook, but we called our moms and tried to understand how to make chicken. Anyway, that’s a really fun memory I have. Okay, shout out to Karen and Jill for must see TV Thursdays.
Amy: When I go to bed later, I’m gonna start googling must-see TV stuff.
Jen: Oh, yeah, that week I fell down a rabbit hole there. Okay, one more segment real quick before we move into an awesome guest.
Let’s do a little Culture Shock.
Oh, I hope I don’t know if you saw this, but this week they announced that Kendrick Lamar is going to do the Super Bowl halftime show.
Amy: I did hear this.
Jen: It’s going to be awesome.
Amy: Because I have some kids who didn’t see him at ACL and I was like, oh, now they can see him on the TV.
Jen: Oh my goodness me. Amazing. Which makes me want to just ask you this and you have to pick one. And I understand that we’ve got some real top contenders, but if you had to choose your favorite Super Bowl halftime show of all time.
Amy: Well, historically, I think if we look back between us and you asked me to pick one, I think I’ve always picked two because I cannot. But this time I will say, okay. And we can end the conversation. Prince.
Jen: I knew you were going to say that. And somewhere Tyler Merritt is cheering and with his earbuds in. That’s his choice too.
Amy: But because it’s in this case the correct answer.
Jen: Gosh it was 2007 by the way. Oh my gosh. Yeah I have goosebumps. Look at goosebumps just remembering it.
Amy: That was so so good.
Jen: So good. I weirdly fell down a Prince rabbit hole yesterday. I was looking at something caught me, I got snagged and then I grabbed it by the tail and lost an hour. Okay. I will just say by way of second place if we can do that. Okay. And of course, this is, clearly subjective, but I will never, ever get over this Super Bowl of 2022 with Dre and Snoop and Eminem and Mary J and Kendrick and 50 cent,
Amy: It was good. It was good. Oh my God, no, it was great.
Jen: It was so great. It was so great. It was so great. I was watching that with friends and my kids. And I mean, there was a lot of hype around that show. So we were all like, I gotta shut up, shut up. I mean, we turned it out. We were locked and loaded and it was so much better than I even expected.
And then when I saw that my kids knew all the words to those old songs, I was like, do you know who’s a good parent? I am, I am.
Amy: I always say this when it comes to music.
Jen: Oh yeah, you’re good at this. Yes, yes. Excellent. Excellent parenting. When our kids can pull out an old Dre song. Don’t. Nobody can tell me anything. I don’t need any instruction on parenting. I want it, I want it already. It was such a fun show. I watched that the next day on YouTube. Probably ten times.
Boop boop repeat, repeat. But Prince is the reigning.
Amy: Prince is the reigning. Yeah, and if we can go outside the parameters of halftime show, greatest performance.
Jen: I already know what you’re going to say.
Amy: Is Whitney.
Jen: After once again, the Star-Spangled banner, I can see her in my. I could see her headband. I can see what she’s wearing.
Amy: I think in terms of singing the Star-Spangled banner. Yes. And sporting events.
Jen: That’s it.
Amy: Throughout history, there’s a before that happened. And then after that happened.
Jen: Big agree she was unrivaled.
Amy: Still I think there are plenty of people who can do that song justice for sure.
Jen: For sure. No I’m not saying there’s no other singers but damn.
Amy: But that was a cultural milestone.
Jen: It sure was. That was iconic.
Amy: Okay. Well, I’m glad we agree.
Jen: That’s good, that’s good. There are other good ones. I’ve got a little list here of just reminders.
Amy: There’s plenty of good ones.
Jen: Yeah. Michael Jackson in 93. That was a big one. And I….
Okay, this is it. And then we’re going to move on. I know this is not like the best of all time, but I’m just telling you the most entertaining person/group to me to watch is Bruno Mars. That kid that can just throw it down.
I mean, isn’t he a kid?
Amy: Yes.
Jen: I don’t know when you ask.
Amy: Well, let me. I mean, he’s up.
Jen: Siri, how old is Bruno Mars? He’s 38.
Amy: Oh my gosh.
Jen: So I rest my case.
Amy: So early 30s when he did the Super Bowl maybe.
Jen: Yes. Let’s see. 2014. So ten years ago. Oh yeah. So he was in his 20s okay. What a kid. He’s so fun.
Amy: So talented.
Jen: Okay. That’s it. Because we had a really incredible conversation before you guys. Get excited. We really just wrapped up our conversation with the incredible. We buried this late. Of course. Is that Nicole Brown? You guys? She is a shiny, glittery unicorn in this world. We’ve been trying to get her on the show, honestly, I think for four years, right before Covid hit.
And anyway, finally, we just wore down. And one way that we were able to do that is because she’s friends with Tyler. So I used my girlfriend status.
Amy: Well played.
Jen: Thanks.
Amy: And I’m so glad you couldn’t get her before this.
Jen: Oh, that’s so true.
Amy: So I could be here.
Jen: You’re right. You know what? In the way that she would say it, God just had this set up for us. And this is his timing. Yeah, well.
Amy: Thank you.
Jen: You’ll see. You’ll see how she talks about her life and the timing of the things that have come into her purview. But, just in case you don’t know if that is, she’s an Emmy nominated actor, writer, producer, and host she’s probably best known for, like, her long time role on community. That was the show we were talking about earlier.
Just a massive, massive hit. The mayor, Drake and Josh. Hi. Remember that from our days, the Odd Couple? She won an Emmy for her role in the HBO series The Black Lady Sketch Show. She wrote a rom com called Always a Bridesmaid. She’s done tons of voiceover work. Like, once you know her voice, you hear her, in so much film and TV, she’s in a bunch of guest hosting The View, The Talk more, a little fun fact.
God, we forgot to ask her this. Amy. She is a Walking Dead like superfan. I cannot believe we forgot to ask her that. She had a cameo in it, and she ran their panel at San Diego Comic Con. Shoot! It was funny to hear her, like, nerd out. Well, have her back. That’s the only option.
She’s literally done everything, both in front of the curtain and behind it. In the industry. She is a delight. We get into this really meaningful and powerful conversation about what it means to be a black woman in her industry, but also in this world. We talk a bit about the election and what is at stake.
I’m just telling you, this conversation is full of depth. And so we were on the edge of our seat, just like.
Amy: We had a plan. We thought we knew. That’s right. What we were going to ask her. And she was driving the bus.
Jen: She was. I’m like, let’s go.
Amy: And it was an amazing ride.
Jen: It was an amazing ride. We jumped the train right off the tracks and you are going to love it. So without any further ado, you are going to enjoy this conversation with me and with Amy and the wonderful Yvette Nicole Brown.
Everybody, welcome to the show you’re in for a treat event. Nicole Brown, I have wanted you to be on this show for probably four years at least. At least. Yes, I just listen sometimes tenacity just finally just wears a girl down and she’s like.
Yvette: No, I wanted to do it the first time you asked. It was just, you know, trying to figure out, you know, the Covid happening. I’m a caregiver and you’re a caregiver, and it’s just, you know, and with.
Jen: The writer’s strike, I mean, it was just…
Yvette: Like, yeah, so much.
Jen: After another, we’ve done it, we’ve done it. We chased you down like a hunter and you have made it into our show. We’re so happy to see you. Okay, let’s start here. Let’s just get this out of the way. You’re friends with my boyfriend. I either marry, and I’m not going to say that I didn’t use my connections to get to you.
So, I mean, he has a lot of qualities, but one of them could be that he can connect me with people that I like. For example, with you, can you talk about how you even know this guy?
Yvette: You know what’s funny? I think about this a lot. There’s a saying that says when it’s a really good friendship, you can’t remember where you met. I honestly don’t. First of all, I don’t know that me and Tyler have ever even actually met. That’s what he said. We have texted. We have sent messages and stuff. We’re in group chats, all of that, follow each other on every piece of social media. But I don’t know that we’ve ever met face to face. And I think we met, during the pandemic time, one of his fabulous books he was sending, I think it was the coffee one, the third, that book. He sent it to me, and I fell in love with his voice. And his story. And, of course, you. I think I was a fan of yours, independent of his. I didn’t know that you guys were together until later. But, that also solidified that I’ve made the right choice in choosing him as a friend. And here we are.
Jen: Here we are.
Amy: Here we are.
Jen: He’s hard to resist. Yeah, he’s pretty cool. Yeah, he’s a pretty good dude. I mean, you fell under his spell pretty quickly when he came into our orbit.
Amy: Immediately.
Jen: Yeah.
Amy: Actually, I fell under his spell before that.
Jen: That’s true, that’s true. Let’s. Let’s get the cart before the horse here. Right.
Amy: Just watching him. Yeah. Do his work online. Yeah, yeah. And then, I mean, I told you I had a feeling like, you know, how sometimes you just see people in, you know, like, there’s some connection. Yeah. And sometimes it hasn’t happened yet.
Yvette: Oh I love it.
Amy: That. And then when. Yeah when you all got together and I actually met him, I was like oh That was what it was I see.
It was so interesting that I was just kind of just going through all your stuff the last couple of days getting ready to meet you on the show. And, I mean, I just start punching out all that you have done, all that you have created. I’m so impressed with your body of work. And it’s not just I mean, you obviously shine and dazzle in front of the camera.
Jen: You’re meant for it. You were born to it. You. There’s no way you’re about to tell us that you did not know from a young age that you were going to be a star, but you’ve done so much behind the camera to like. You are a creator and a writer and a producer and, that is, that’s a completely different muscle.
And so I think we’d just like to hear, if you don’t mind, before we drill into some of it a little bit about your art and how this started for you and where you began and what you were learning and how it expanded and grew. I mean, at this point, there’s almost nothing you haven’t tackled.
Yvette: Eating healthy and exercising…. haven’t figured it out.
You know, it’s funny, I joke a lot about, first of all, thank you for that kindness because I don’t feel like anybody starts. And I don’t know, as a kid, if I ever thought that I would be a star, I always felt that I would be impactful in people’s lives in some way because of the way I love people, and I.just love people so much, and I want everybody to be okay. So I kind of felt like God would move me into places where I could be a respite for people, or a place where I could make people laugh or feel better. So I knew he would use me that way. But on this grand scale, I had no idea.
And my my entrance into all of it was was music. Actually, I started as a singer. I forget if the listeners heard this before. Forgive me because I do tell this story a bit, but I was signed to Motown. Michael Bivins, from New Additions and had been a manager for a while, and he discovered Boyz ii Men, and he discovered me as a singer around the same time.
And we were in the East Coast family with them, and really was going to chase the music side because I love music so much. And, the music business is a dirty business, and it’s, you have less control over your trajectory once you step into music than you do as an actor, as an actor, I can say no to roles that don’t feed my spirit or make me feel. But in the music business, you kind of have to run the race that is placed in front of you until you become a huge star and can control it. And I just couldn’t give up enough of my soul, to have a career. I knew that that’s not in me to sell my soul the way I sold it. But I’m saying there’s compromises that you have to make in certain segments of the entertainment industry that I am unwilling to make. Yeah. So I knew that, you know, just started with, I need to wear pants. There’s a lot of leotard work happening and I got to have my pants on. So just starting from there, I knew that it was not the right industry for me.
So then I segue into commercials and sitcoms and then everything else just happened voice over and game shows and hosting and moderating panels. And I still am pinching myself. I’m, I’m, Forrest Gump in the flesh in real life because I just say yes to things that feel right, and then God just takes me to the next opportunity to do the same.
Jen: Wow.
Amy: What are some of the best and hardest things about being behind the camera versus your work in front of the camera?
Yvette: You know the best things about being behind the camera. You don’t have to wear girdles.
Jen: Oh, yay! Oh, we love to see it.
Yvette: Yeah. No Spanx. I love it.
Things that I’ve produced, the shows that I produce, I produced the movie that I wrote, our executive produce that, I and also the other thing about it is I like finding really great people and giving them a chance to shine. Yeah. I’ve always had the gift of the background. I’m the person in my church choir that I didn’t want to sing to lead. I want to be strong in that alto section and hold it up for other people. And so, the times that I produced, the one time that I directed, I loved the feeling of celebrating other artists and being like, go get them. Yes. Be amazing. So it’s like finding that diamond in the rough and helping them get to where they want to go next. The hardest part is that it’s time intensive. But I found with the way I move, I’m so type A and I like Hamilton. They say, why do you write like you’re running out of time? I live each day as if I’m running out of time. So if I’m acting, if I’m doing this podcast, if I’m caring for my dad, I’m doing it 110%. So it’s not like producing is harder for me than acting. It’s just very time intensive and other people’s journeys are involved. So it makes me just kind of lean in a little more so that that’s a tough thing for me.
Jen: Can you talk a little bit about your experience as not just a black creator, an artist, but a black woman in the industry and how you perceive the landscape opportunities. What are the complexities here that you’re just walking through just by virtue of existence, much less the work that you’re doing and how you have to get it run up the right flagpoles?
Yeah. I mean, the music business is dirty, but your business can also be a real quagmire. So I don’t know. I’d love to hear something about your experience at that intersection.
Yvette: It’s like I remember the quote. I think it was Ginger Rogers that said, you know, she’s doing everything Fred Astaire is doing, but she’s doing it backwards and in heels. Yeah. So I think that in regards to being a black woman in this industry, you have all the woman stuff that we already have to fight through.
Every woman has the same gauntlet that she has to run through, dealing with at times mediocre men who think they know best.
Jen: Correct.
Yvette: But then you add in, you know, the white supremacy and racism and all of those things. And, and also the, the, the stigma of being a strong black woman, you’re not just strong, you’re also angry. You’re also, rude or whatever word they want, a pejorative word they want to put on you. And so to move in this business for women, you have to be agreeable and likable to a certain extent. You have to, not the things that the men can get away with and be considered strong and powerful. And he knows what he wants as well. Those are bad things for us, bad things for us to be. So you have to be assertive without upsetting the applecart. And be assertive without appearing to be uppity. As a black woman, you have to be assertive and knowledgeable while still appearing to know your place.
And we’re seeing this play out when we look at the fabulous Kamala Harris. Not to get political, but to get political. Look at the fabulous Kamala Harris, who is the most qualified person to ever run for president, ever. And there’s no one that can dispute that. She is the most qualified. She has the most experience for this office. And she has been elected for everything she’s done. Nothing has been handed to her. The people have chosen her for every job she’s had in the public space. And yet there are people that say she doesn’t deserve it. Yeah, she didn’t earn it. She got it because of nefarious means. And that’s because she’s a black woman. And how could a black woman be that brilliant? How could a black woman be that strong? How could a black woman go through all she’s gone through and still have joy in her heart? Isn’t it interesting how they just can’t see it on us? And meanwhile, if you throw a rock, you’re going to hit a black woman with all those qualities.
We just have to be that. Because we can’t exist in this world. We can’t exist in this world without it. We don’t have any protectors. That’s right. We don’t have any benefactors. We save ourselves. And that’s why black women are always so close together. Because whenever you see a sister, you know her story without knowing her story. That’s why we call each other sister. Because we know. We know what you’ve been through. Same thing with black men, brother, sister. We know what the other person has been through and we stand with each other and support each other. But here’s the thing. We stand with and support everybody else too. Yeah. And that’s why we say when there’s election season, we say vote like black women think like black women. That’s not hubris. That’s not arrogance, right? That’s heart. That soul. That’s knowing that we put everybody else before ourselves. So if you vote with us, we’re still taking care of you. We’re still watching out for you. So vote like us. Vote who we’re voting for, and you’re gonna be fine. You’ll see.
Jen: You’re going to be fine.
Yvette: You’re going to be fine if you vote like us.
Jen: I believe I’ve said this for years. Not just, you know, for the big moments like the presidential election. But when it comes to anything that pops up in the news, in culture, in, current events, whatever’s going on, if I feel even a modicum of like, I’m not sure how to feel about this, I’m not sure what my response is. I don’t even know how to read the room or I can’t quite discern the landscape. My goal: I’ve said this a million times. I just look to my black women. I’m like, yeah, what do you think? And that’s what I’m going to think. That’s I’m just I’m on your heels. I’m like, I hope it’s just the correct reading of the room. And then the response is always for the greater good. It is for the common good. It is. What is good for culture is what is good for people, our neighbors, society, progress, equality. So I am always here, here, here, here, here, here.
Amy: I think one reason why so many people don’t automatically believe that it is the joy factor, like putting in the hard work we can understand, but the ability to access joy in all of it, I think is something that exists in the black evangelical church that doesn’t always exist in the white evangelical church or the progressive church like that.
That constant taproot root that allows joy through all of it. Yeah.
Yvette: You know, because, Amy, our joy is our strength. It’s really all we have when we drill it down. Because I remember my mom used to say, may she rest in peace. You laugh to keep from crying. Because the other thing you have to understand is that no one cares about black women’s tears. They don’t care. They care about white women’s tears, but they don’t care about black women’s tears. So we learned long ago, there’s no point even crying because nobody’s going to paint it. They’re going to step right over me. If I’m in pain. So there’s no point in me giving you my pain. You don’t even. It doesn’t even register. And I’ll take my pain to my sisters, and they will hold me and walk me through it. But I don’t show the public. Like if you think of any place you’ve worked through your life, any corporate place, any place you’ve worked, I want you to think hard and try to figure out if a black woman cried at anybody, come to her aid, ever. Yeah, they never do. Now, if a white woman cries, what happens?
Jen: Well, they’re just weaponized tears.
Yvette: Everything stops if a white woman cries. And white women know this and I’m not saying it’s sinister. I’m not saying they’re using what they have. And they know that if the tears start, everything stops and all attention will go to them. So that’s what you guys have. We don’t have that. So instead of me showing you my pain, I’m going to use my joy as my strength. And I dance through this pain. I’m going to laugh through this thing. You know, I’ve been watching and going back to Kamala, when you watch her in these spaces, when she hears something that is ridiculous, she goes to laughter because it’s ridiculous.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: And she’s going to. And they even hate that.
Jen: They don’t even like her laughing. They hate her laughing. She can’t even laugh.
Yvette: So it’s just, you know, it’s something. It is a superpower that we have. I think it’s something that is a gift from God. I think it is soul level. And I found out recently, and this is I’m going to take a left or right turn and you guys pull me back. Now, I was talking to a dear friend of mine, a white woman. It was after the debacle of 2016, and I couldn’t understand the 53% that had voted against their best interest, but beyond that, didn’t vote for themselves.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: You know, like you, she’s there. She looks like you. She’s excellent and you can’t see yourself. I was shocked I did not understand it. And I talked to my friend Jan. She’s a Jen as well. I talked to my friend Jan and I said, what is this like? Why did so many white women not vote for the white woman?
And she said, white women don’t see themselves in other white women. I’ve asked other white friends, white female friends this sense, and they’ve all agreed. And I put it on Twitter, and 97% of white women who responded agreed. She said that white women are not brought up to seek community with other white women.
They are raised to see competition in other white women. And so it literally becomes and I said, well, just outside, not just not outside in the family, too. The mamas are competing with the daughters. The daughters are competing with each other. Everybody’s competing with the cousins when they go to school, they’re competing to find the dude that they’re good and it’s cutthroat, she said.
So there’s no way you’re not taught that she is. You’re not taught that we are stronger together, or we can go further if we help each other. You’re not taught that. This is her words, not mine. So I am baffled by that, because it’s a complete opposite to the way black women are raised and black people are raised, but especially black women.
We are literally taught you need her.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: You will not survive without her. She is not your enemy. She is your ally. She’s your friend. She’s your sister. And so it’s just if you look at the idea of, what Jotaka Eaddy did with black woman the day that Kamala got the endorsement. Yeah. Hundreds and thousands of black women coming together like that tells you.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: Where are we going? Where do we go? Where do we stand? And what do we do? Broke zoom. Broke zoom. Running to get into a room to help the system. That’s right. It. So it’s something that I believe you guys can learn to foster. Because the more you have black female friends and get to see how we do it, you will see how much joy and love and just, such a warm hug to know that you have someone that is rooting for you in the same way that you’re rooting for them, right?
Jen: Absolutely.
Yvette: So it’s possible to get it, but you have to see it first to know it exists. Because if your circle is only other white women and they have not tapped into the beauty of sisterhood, you are going to go through life only thinking of the men in your life, right? And that’s essentially what happened. I got to save my son and my husband, Donald Trump is the way because he cares about white people.
Jen: Yeah, that’s the problem. I think power is such a reliable disrupter here, because what white women know, whether intuitively or overtly or both, is that one of our tools is proximity to white male power. We’re close. We’re good. We have crumbs from that table. That’s right. And we know that’s how it works. And so we have been conditioned to position ourselves in proximity to that power. So we have a vested interest to actually keep white men on the top rung of the ladder, because at least we’re still getting some crumbs. No one ever taught us that we didn’t have to bend for crumbs. We could raise our own seats as women. No, that was not a message I ever heard.
Yvette: And that’s the message we always hear from the time we’re born. We are taught you cannot depend on anybody. That’d be nice. If you find somebody that wants to love you and help you and walk through life with you, your sisters will do that for sure. Your brothers will do that for sure. But as far as someone that’s going to protect you. I mean, even Malcolm X said that the black woman is the most unprotected, disrespected. He listed 12, 11 things that we are never considered except by each other. Right. So we could not depend on a man to protect us or our. We just couldn’t. Now again, many people have that and it’s lovely if you find that. But we couldn’t depend on it. It was not guaranteed for us. So we had to make sure. That’s why we are the most educated group of people. We have to get our own doctorate. We have to get our own masters. We have to have our own company, because we can’t expect anyone to come in and take care of us for the rest of our lives, and a lot, in a lot of instances. Nor do we need it, require it or desire it. We want to have our own thing. Yeah, because when we have our own things, we can do more good.
Jen: That’s right. And that’s how it works.
Amy: And I think for the shift to happen is number one for white women to recognize our position, our proximity to power. Like just understand that. But then to see things differently, we have to have a different worldview. And right now, I think the competitiveness, the proximity to power is because we have a world view of scarcity.
Yvette: Right?
Amy: Ironically.
Yvette: Yeah. Right. Right.
Amy: We are the ones with the.
Jen: Yeah, the biggest slice of the pie.
Amy: Right. And yet we still see things through a lens of scarcity. And I think the black community and black women see things with a worldview of abundance. Yeah. Meaning it’s just a completely different way of seeing every facet of life. That’s right. Yeah. And that’s a really hard pivot if you’ve been you know what’s.
Yvette: Funny, Amy? The abundance is not so much that we see it outside of us. We see it within us because this is what abundance is there for black people, right? I’m saying this is not a world that is wide open for us. It never has been, you know, and with what the Supreme Court did to women with Roe v Wade and then also with affirmative action for us, there’s even less opportunity for us to be upwardly mobile in the education space. Right now, they’re taking our books out of schools and banning them and burning them. So there’s less opportunity for little black brown babies and even little white kids to find out.
Jen: That’s right.
Yvette: The beauty of blackness. So there’s no abundance outside, right? The abundance is within. And I’d rather have it there anyway, because I take that with me no matter what I see outside my window right.
Amy: And that’s the one thing you are taught, which means, yes, we can also learn it, but absolutely, absolutely. There’s so much disparity in what we’re taught from a young age. And it’s and.
Yvette: That’s heartbreaking to me to hear like, yeah, when my friend Jen told me and let me say this out loud because I don’t want the tweets. Not all white women.
Jen: Sure, sure, sure, sure, sure.
Yvette: I just do that because I get them sometimes. I’m talking about those who don’t care. But, I think that it’s important to understand that it’s something that happened to you all generationally. Right. And I see it. I see all white supremacy as a form of child abuse. Because when you tell….yellow babies, historically, they’re better just because they lack melanin. And when you think about that’s the only reason, the only better because you’re not brown, right? It’s so dumb, right? It’s right to tell a child that I think it limits what they end up doing because they think inherently like the one that’s running against Kamala really thinks he’s really smart.
Amy: Yeah.
Yvette: He’s not now, but he’s been told that because he lacks melanin that he’s the best there ever is, which means he never even had a chance to try to see if he could do anything with his life because he thought inherently he was just did. And he’s not. So it is child abuse. It limits what little white kids get to believe and dream of for themselves. Because also, if it’s just because I don’t have melanin, then it’s not about skill.
Jen: That’s right.
Yvette: So I don’t have to ever get a skill really. And then because so many that are privileged and entitled and rich fail forward, I was on a set once. I won’t say what’s that? But I was on set once and I heard the star of the show talking to a producer friend, and he said, yeah, so-and-so’s daughter is getting out of school and she wants to be a writer. So I’m going to bring her into the writers room and get her started so she can have a good, a good start. The guy goes, have you read anything? I don’t need to read anything. It’s so-and-so’s daughter. Yeah, I got her.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: This is a conversation no black person has ever been a part of. The beneficiary is right in this business.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: You know and if it is if someone has it that the amount that the percentage is infinitesimal.
Jen: Yeah.
Yvette: Right. Because first there’s not enough black people in positions of power to be able to have generational connections in this industry to, to bring little Johnny into the writers room with no, no, experience. So when you look at stuff like that and you realize it’s not just happening on that side, it’s happening on every set, then you realize as an actor in this business or anything in this business, that there are going to be people in rooms that you’re going into that don’t belong there, that have not earned their right. They want to talk about the guy. That’s the guy. You want to get rid of affirmative action, and yet you’re letting people in on legacy because the daddy and the granddaddy and the granddaddy went to the school, so they get to come in. So that’s not that’s not affirmative action. That’s not because I didn’t earn it, you know.
So these are the things that we’re warring against. And this is the thing I want to be clear about. I’m happy for that girl. This business is hard. I’m glad she’s got a leg up. I just wish everybody had the leg up. I wish it was truly an even playing field. Because when someone is toiling with black people, when we’re in this business, we have to toil for a good ten, 20 years before we get a shot.
Now, thank God, melanin is restorative. You know, I can play 30 when I’m 75.
Jen: That’s right. Right.
Yvette: So that’s good. That’s the way God redeems time. But it takes us so much longer because we have to have 5011 credits before we can get in that same writer’s room that little Mary got in just because she’s Michael’s daughter. These are the things that we come here knowing. We know this. And that’s why we work hard. We get our degrees. That’s why, you know.
Jen: And you are in a position of power. Absolutely. You get to make those choices, and you get to build a different culture.
Yvette: And bring other people in, though. And that’s the thing. Going back to it, we do things for the greater good, of course. So if we get writers’ rooms where it’s not going to be just so-and-so’s daughter, sure, we’re going to make sure everybody comes in here. Yeah, there has not been a black show I’ve been on where there haven’t been white people working on it too.
Jen: Now.
Yvette: Have I been on white shows where the whole crew is white. Sure. Yes. Yeah, I’ve, I’ve been on white. You on, on a show where the whole writer’s room is white. Yes. I have never been on a black show where the entire writer’s room is black or the entire crew is black. We just don’t do it like.
Amy: It’s a perfect example of a rising tide. Lifts all boats.
Yvette: Lifts all boats.
Jen: Lifts all boats.
Speaking of a rising tide and joy, it is real fun to just watch you be in love. Oh, really? Five? You know, our stories are different. I was married for 26 years, but I did not expect to be single in my upper 40s. That was. I did not see that coming. And so, even though it is the second time for me, also falling in love, We’re about the same age. I’m 50.
Yvette: Yeah, I just turned 53.
Jen: Yeah. And. Whoa, whoa.
Yvette: Restorative.
Jen: Tell us, tell us a little bit more. Of course I follow you. So I’ve been. I’ve been watching your love story unfold. It’s just delightful. Tell us about your guy and what it’s, you know, like, to fall like this in your 50s.
Yvette: Yeah. He’s so nice, like, I, I when I tell people, the greatest attribute that he has besides being a lover of God and Christ as I am, he is such a nice man. Thinks of others, cares about others, speaks life into others. He’s super funny and just talented and just my match in temperament and silliness. And you know, and I had hung up my love had I, I believe that God has been so faithful and kind to me in so many ways. I was okay with the love thing, that not being for me. You know, everybody doesn’t leave here married or having a love affair or a love story. And God had been so good. So I said, I can’t sit here and act like he hasn’t been good to me just because that one thing didn’t happen. So I just got busy continuing to do his work and let it go.
And the story with me and Tony. Tony and I were friends 30 years ago, 25 years ago, in an acting class at church. That’s where we met. He was married. He had married, was a young father, a young husband. And we were just platonic friends. But I always thought he was so nice. He’s funny and nice, and I was glad he was my friend. So he left LA and returned to New York with his family. And he and I lost touch for 25 years. There were no texts, but no calls, no anything. He was living his life. I was living mine. And I thought of him often. Like, I wonder how Tony Davis is doing. I wonder what’s going on with him, because again, he made a big impact on me in my life. And then, I think five years ago, he got divorced. I didn’t know he divorced. And then, a guy I didn’t know and a strange name on Instagram would just pop up in the comment section like, congratulations or great job on this show, or I hope you’re doing well.
And I get a lot of really kind messages like that from people I don’t know. And I just go, thank you, sir, or thank you, Mary in Peoria. And I keep it moving. Right. Keep moving. So then my mom and my mom passed, three years ago, and I got a DM from him that said, I heard about your mom. How are you doing? And it was like the emphasis and, you know, how are you? And I wrote, who are you? Like, this was like, you literally are everywhere. Who are you? And he was like, He’s Tony Davis. And I was like Tony Davis from Central Missionary Baptist Church. Once. And so we just started talking as friends again, and we caught up and he was telling me what’s happening with his sons in his life. And he had become an ordained minister. He was working for the city of New York. He was telling me all these things that he had done, and of course, that he was divorced. And I started sharing things that were happening with my life. And the next thing you know, we’re talking, you know, a couple times a week, then we’re talking every day, and then we’re talking almost all day and still friends, you know? And then every time I would go to New York for work, we would end up going to a Broadway show. I was like, Tony, you want to go see Hamilton and you want to go see MJ the musical? And he’d be like, sure. So then we became like, just buddies in New York. And then one day it was just kind of like….
Jen: Wait a minute.
Yvette: What is what is? And listen, I’d never been engaged. Never. Truly. Now that I am in love, I know that I was never truly in love. So I didn’t even know what I was feeling. I was, I was. Is this the knowing that everyone says it turns out it’s the knowing? Yeah. So he’s my guy and he’s, you know, he God had a plan for each of us and his beautiful sons that are in the world needed to exist. And they are a part of him and his ex-wife, and they’re amazing. And I needed to go forth and create this amazing career and to get my life settled, so that when he came into my life, we could work together to continue building what God had already begun. And we’ve already started that work. Me and him. You think I’m amazing? Me with him, it’s a good time. It’s a good time. So I’m just really grateful for what God has done in my life in every area. And he’s a big part of it now.
Jen: God, that’s so fun to hear.
Amy: It’s wonderful to watch the two of you together.
Yvette: Thank you, Honey.
Amy: I’ve watched some interviews that you’ve done together and your chemistry and joy again, and the way you laugh and are so comfortable together, it’s just really wonderful to watch.
Yvette: Yeah, we really are. He’s my best friend. Like, he really is like that. He’s the coolest person I know. And look, you see me glistening because I’m getting a hot flash. 53. Let me pull this fan on for a minute. Talk amongst yourselves.
Jen: We know all about it.
Yvette: Oh my gosh.
Jen: Everybody comes into my house. They’re like, do you have a parka I can put on? I’m like, this is how cold it’s going to be in here or oh my day. Oh, I know it’s just and I didn’t even know I didn’t know this. I didn’t know about this.
Yvette: Nobody did. Have you guys heard about the cold flashes?
Jen: Well, I have not.
Yvette: Oh, they never come. Like, it would be great if I could have one right now because I’m having a hot flash. It literally in the same way the hot flash will come and turn you into a furnace. The cold flash will come and turn you into a freezer. It is ridiculous. I’m literally putting on coats, taking off coats, grabbing fans, turning fans off. It’s ridiculous.
Jen: I can’t.
Amy: I don’t have a cold flash, but I can’t regulate my temperature very well. No we can’t if I get in cold water, if I take a cold shower, I can get warm for till like tomorrow.
Yvette: Yes. Because it. Yeah, it’s our lives. This is our lives now, ladies.
Jen: It’s so unpleasant.
Yvette: I feel it is. It’s really horrible. It’s horrible.
Amy: In addition to all of your work, on screen, behind the camera, in writers rooms, you also have a new project, a podcast.
Jen: About Caregiving. Oh, I love it, which is so needed. This is not a big enough conversation. But our generation is there. We’re there.
Amy: Yeah, we’re in the middle sandwich. And, I’ve listened to a few episodes. They are so well done because they are so real, but also approached with such kindness. Thank you. It’s really hard to give everything when you’re a caregiver and also not see it as a burden.
Yvette: Yep.
Amy: And also convince the person who you’re caring for that it’s not a burden. Not a burden like the work can be impossibly difficult, but also not a burden. Yeah. And I think the, the stories you’ve highlighted, the people you’ve interviewed, they’ve all done a great job in explaining that and you’ve sussed that out. Can you tell us more about the project?
Yvette: Yeah. First, thanks for the chance to do that. And thank you for listening. It’s called Squeezed and it’s a play on the idea of being the sandwich generation, which we are, where people in our age group are a lot of times taking care of kids and also taking care of parents at the same time.
So, Lemonada Media produces it. And we decided that we wanted to create a safe space for caregivers, first of all, and also to, to give them a love letter. Right? A lot of us that are caregivers, we toil in silence. We also feel like we’re alone and no one else is doing it, because I don’t know if it’s because caregivers are so tired, but they’re not talking about it, or if they’re so humble that they’re not talking about it . Because, excuse me, it takes a certain type of person to selflessly and sacrificially give of themselves for the benefit of another person, right. And do it for years at a time. So I think it’s a different type of humanity. And I think that a lot of caregivers are just, first of all, too humble, to even realize they’re caregivers. What I like to say and what I’ve said on On squeezed is that you’re either before you leave you, you’ll either be a caregiver or provide care.
And many people will do both. Right. But more than that, I think there are people that are caregivers that don’t realize they are parents, are caregivers. If you send Instacart food to your aunt in Chicago and make sure she, you make her appointments for her doctor, you’re her caregiver, you know, and so there are things that you’re doing. You’re spending your lunch hour, you know, calling her doctor. You’re sacrificially giving of yourself to make sure she has what she needs. That is caregiving. So if more people open their mind to what it is, we can move the government to create more safety nets for people so that you don’t have to use your lunch hour so that you can deduct maybe some of these things and get some of this money back that you’re expanding.
So Squeezed talks to all the different types of caregivers. They kind of grab all the stories of what’s difficult for them. And then we have an episode where we talk about Xavier Becerra, who is the Secretary of Health and Human Services, and we told him, this is what Jessica’s dealing with. This is what Rebecca is dealing with, or Lou or whoever. This is what they’re dealing with. What can you talk to the current administration about making this better? And so it’s about creating a place for people to rest. I call it a docu-podcast. So it’s not just me talking to like, I’m talking with you. We also sent a crew to their homes. Right? So there’s clips of their life, you hear their kids running around in the background, or you’ll hear them having a conversation with their mother or their father who they’re caring for. And then we add the other aspect of me having an interview with them as well. So if you close your eyes, it’s almost like you’re listening to a documentary of this person’s life, and it’s soothing. You know, it’s soothing because there are triumphs in all their lives. It’s cathartic because there’s challenges and they’re there. They may mirror the challenges that you have. And then, you know, I got jokes. So I’m cracking some jokes to make sure we can lighten the load in every episode. I truly think it’s special. And I’m not just saying that because I produced it. It’s just it’s special and it’s needed. And I hope that every caregiver and I say in there, may you or future you, find your way to it and find some comfort in what we’re trying to do for us. And that’s all of us. Because, again, we’re all going to be in this boat at some point for you.
Jen: I cannot wait to put that in front of my community. Just link it up everywhere. It is the only lonely place to be. It is, and I just know from leading this many women that tons of women in our age range are going through this to some degree. You know, it’s a huge spectrum, but that is part of their story and they don’t quite know where to turn.
Amy: And of course that’s borne out of your own experience.
Yvette: You know, 11 years of my daddy taking care of my daddy.
Jen: Before we let you go. Yeah. We’d love to hear what your favorite things are that you are working on now. What do you love? Like, what’s so fun? What are you looking forward to?
Yvette: Well, aside from Squeezed, I did a really cool movie that just premiered at TIFF, Anderson .Paak. The amazing performer. But he has a prolific musical career on his own. It’s his directorial debut. It’s called K-pops. So it’s a play on K-pop. Anderson is is part Korean. He’s black and Korean, as is his son. And it’s a, like a playful musical story about him reconnecting with a son he didn’t know he had. And it’s set in the K-pop world. And I play his mom. I play Anderson .Paak’s mom. Yeah. Very young, too young to be his mom. Obviously. Yeah. And so it just debuted at TIFF, and we got a standing ovation. I wasn’t able to go to the premiere, but all of the cast was like, girl, it was so great. So it’s coming out.
And then also, I have a really fun episode of Frasier coming up, I have a great friend and she’s a series regular on Frasier. And from season one, she was talking about her sister Monica. And season two, Monica appears and I got to play her. Yeah, it’s pretty awesome. So those are two things.
And, you know, I do a lot of voiceover stuff. I have a manga that’s coming out as a cartoon, and it’s a bunch of little things I like to do.
Amy: So yeah, you hustle, you have to.
Jen: You just have so many irons in the fire. They’re all interesting. You’re just a creative. So I can imagine there’s probably no other way for you to be in the world.
Yvette: Can I mention, can I mention one other thing? Important. I’m also vice chair of an organization called Donors Choose, and I don’t know if you guys are aware of it, but Donors Choose is the. It’s a charity for teachers and students, and it’s where teachers who want to do amazing things in their classrooms but can’t afford it because they’re not paid well and public schools are not funded as they should be. That’s another problem. They put what they need out. Like I’d like, you know, a 64 box of crayons for everybody in my classroom. And then we, the donors get to say, I got five on it, or I’m going to fund the whole thing. And then you get to become a hero in a classroom, and help teachers and students. So it’s donorschoose.org.
And then one other thing I want to mention is, the Creative Coalition is a wonderful philanthropic arm of the entertainment industry, and I’m the chair of their Commission on Caregiving. So they’re doing great things to make sure that people know more about caregiving. They also had initiatives on mental health. They had initiatives on obesity being a disease. They have their overarching thing that they fight for is arts in schools and arts and communities. And we go to Washington and Capitol Hill and advocate for these things every year. So I just wanted to shout out the Creative Coalition.
So and lastly, Emily’s list, which works to get, pro-choice Democratic women elected. So those are three boards that I am super excited about and wanted to shout them out and hope people will consider giving to those causes and helping those causes.
Amy: What are we doing with our lives?
Jen: We’re linking all of her things.
Amy: Every last one linked link, link to give your money. And then following her lead.
Jen: Yeah that’s right, that’s right. We are glad to have met you. We were talking about you this morning before we hopped into the studio like, who is this just magical person in the world? You’re just, I’m just proud of you. I don’t know if that’s a weird thing to say.
Yvette: No, it’s not.
Jen: I’m just really proud of the way that you’re living your life and of using your voice in such a powerful and important way, and then creating so much joy for the masses. It’s really extraordinary to watch. And thanks.
Yvette: You. I’m proud of you too. Thank you. And I love all the work that you’re doing. And, you know, it’s not a small thing that you guys would even open up your platform for me to be able to reach even more people and talk about the things that matter to me. So I am very grateful you had me.
And, anything I can ever do to help amplify whatever you’re doing?
Jen: Same.
Yvette: You just let me know.
Jen: Same. That’s it. After you go into your life, you must have 25 things to do in the next calendar year, so I’m sure you do. Thanks for being on. Thank you. So happy to have finally met you.
Yvette: Thank you. Nice to have met you both in this era. This is awesome. Thank you.
Jen: Okay guys, thanks for being here. Thank you for listening. Thank you for downloading. Thank you for reviewing. Thank you for subscribing. It means so much to us and we see you and we’re always listening to you. We appreciate you as a listening community. So so, so much. So if you go to Jen hatmaker.com under the podcast tab, I’ll have this. Everything about this episode I’ll have the show notes, I’ll have all the links that we promised to you, all the incredible work that event does, links to her stuff, her shows, her spaces, her socials. She’s a really great follow on social media. You can get it all in one space and you can share this episode if you’d like. We love when you do. So, incredible interviews are in queue for the rest of 2024. This is a good year for the pod. And I am so happy you are here. I can’t imagine doing it with anybody else.
Amy: And I’m excited to go home and watch all her stuff, like, as Mrs. Obama said, get to work.
Jen: That’s right.
Amy: And I’m going to do what she’s doing.
Jen: Thanks for being here. See you next week.
Mentioned in this Episode:
I Take My Coffee Black: Reflections on Tupac, Musical Theater, Faith, and Being Black in America by Tyler Merritt – https://amzn.to/3U6nMfN
Yvette’s acting and producing credits – https://www.imdb.com/name/nm1304328/
Kamala Harris for President – https://kamalaharris.com/
How Black Women Organizers Broke Zoom to Raise $1.5 Million – Fortune.com
K-Pops by Anderson .Paak at Toronto International Film Festival – https://tiff.net/events/k-pops
Frasier – https://www.paramountplus.com/shows/frasier-2023/
Among Us – https://www.innersloth.com/voice-cast-for-the-among-us-animated-series-round-1/
Donors Choose – https://www.donorschoose.org/
The Creative Coalition Commission on Caregiving – https://thecreativecoalition.org/caregiving/
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