Love, Learning and Leadership with Stedman Graham - Jen Hatmaker

Love, Learning and Leadership with Stedman Graham

Episode 4

In this bonus episode as we begin a new series, which features Powerhouse Women, we’re thrilled to visit with someone close to one of the most powerful women on the planet! Stedman Graham is a brilliant business consultant whose clients range from Microsoft to the US Department of Labor. And after talking with him about his latest book, Identity Leadership, we can see why. Stedman reminds us if you want to lead someone else, you need to lead yourself first—and leading yourself means knowing who you are and where you want to go. He and Jen talk about why love is the secret ingredient to transforming our energy, why Oprah is one of the world’s most effective leaders, and how we can help our kids become creative, curious thinkers who can lead and dare greatly into the next generation. Whether you’re leading the way for your family or an entire company, Stedman’s advice rings true: find what you love and go do it, because love will light you up and change the world.

Episode Transcript

Narrator:  Hi everybody, my name is Remy. Welcome to the For the Love Podcast, with your host Jen Hatmaker, my mom. She writes books and speaks to crowds. But she mostly loves talking to amazing people, every week, on this podcast. Thanks for listening. We hope you enjoy the show.

Jen:  Hey everybody, Jen Hatmaker here. Welcome to the For the Love Podcast.

Super glad you’re here today. You’re going to be also, because we have a really special guest today and I’m pretty over the moon that he joined us for this, which is a special bonus episode.

I have wondered for years about this man, and how he has navigated being the partner of one of the most powerful women on the planet, just unarguably. Their enduring love and good humor and connection and loyalty, for me, is relationship goals, for sure. I am incredibly pleased that you and I can learn a little bit more about his journey, and what he is putting out into the world right now.

For more than 30 years, Stedman Graham has built a strong reputation for helping corporations and organizations and individuals, for that matter, succeed. He’s the Chairman and CEO of S. Graham & Associates. It’s a management and marketing consulting firm. He’s got some decent clients. I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of them, like Microsoft, CVS, like, this very unknown entity called the U.S. Department of Labor, for example. His work specifically focuses on teaching the value of identity leadership, which we’re going to completely unpack for you what that means, and how to obtain it. He’s actually written 12 books, you guys, including two New York Times bestsellers.

Speaking of books, Stedman just released his latest one called Identity Leadership. He lays out this very thoughtful and even systematic approach on how to identify, like, who it is you are, what it is you want to do in the world, what you’re gifted to do in the world, what you’re meant to do in the world, and then what you need to build up in yourself before you start helping others, and then sort of chart your path. It’s so incredibly useful. It is, as he says in the interview, completely born of love. You know this is, he’s singing my song.

Stedman is just this really smart and thoughtful guy. He brings some excellent food for thought in the book, which we’re going to talk about today. And we’re putting it right here because as we head into our next series about powerhouse women, he is the perfect bridge to help us begin thinking about what it is we want to do in the world, and how to get there. He knows a little bit about powerful women. He has been a partner to Oprah for as long as I can remember. We have a lot to learn from him.

With that, you guys, I’m ever so pleased to share my conversation with the amazing, smart, and thoughtful Stedman Graham.

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Jen: Okay, so Stedman Graham, welcome to the For the Love Podcast. I cannot tell you how delighted I am to have you on today.

Stedman: Well, thank you so much for having me on.

Jen: Absolutely. Obviously, we all know who you are. I feel like we’ve grown up with you. I’ve told my listeners a lot about your business credentials and what you’ve done in the world. I’m really fascinated with your work. You have had an incredibly rich career. I wonder if you would tell us a little bit first, before we get into your book, about your path and essentially what eventually led you to create your own company.

Stedman: Well, I don’t know. I mean it’s been a long journey to try to figure out, your sweet spot in life and the core foundation of who you are and who you want to become. It takes a lot of work.

My goal and purpose and mission in life is to help people, show people how to develop themselves so they can define themselves as opposed to being defined by race, or gender, or class, or entitlements, or family, or mother, or father, or wealth, or title, or whatever the case may be. There is a process for that, and I put that in my Identity Leadership book, which is self-leadership, defined as self-leadership based on the philosophy that you can’t meet anybody else until you first meet yourself.

Jen: I am really interested in this. I’m intrigued by the title. I’m intrigued by the concept of identity leadership, and how you have built this system around it. My entire team is reading it right now. It’s really, really powerful.

I wonder if you could, just for people who are hearing it the first time, how would you say that identity leadership is different from the way a lot of other leaders approach the way they manage others, or their business, or their company? What’s the difference here? How does this diverge from a lot of other leadership instruction?

Stedman: The difference is is that your work is tied to your heart and soul, your life is tied to your heart and soul. It’s tied to what you can do, not what you can’t do. It’s not tied to your title. It’s not tied to your position. It’s not tied to your platform. It’s tied to your being. It’s a survival process that is connected to who you are and who you can be. It represents your legacy. It represents your vision. It represents your thoughts. It represents your value system. It represents all of those things that you tie together to make you authentic and real.

It allows you to develop a process of continuous improvement over and over so that you can see yourself differently. Einstein said, “You cannot solve a problem with the same mindset that caused it.” We have so many opportunities to apply that information and knowledge to ourselves so we can be the best person we can possibly be.

Jen: It’s just counterintuitive to what a lot of leaders are hearing in the business world. This has this ring of vulnerability and authenticity. This is the way sort of I lead in my world, as well. I have found it to be the only path forward that feels genuine and that actually is powerful in its effect.

One thing that you say, you said, “Leadership remains the number one talent issue facing organizations around the world.” I’m curious. I’d like to hear you talk more about that because it seems like we are in a world right now absolutely chock-full of people claiming themselves as influencers, but are we really lacking leaders? Do we have too many influencers and not enough leaders? Or are we lacking a certain type of leader?

Stedman: Well, this is really an internal issue. It’s not for me to judge other people about who they should become and say, “You’re not doing this right. You’re not doing that right.” And, “You’re a bad leader. You’re a good leader.” This is about teaching people about self, teaching anybody in the world about self and self-mastery. Getting them to understand that the process of success is the same. We’re not here to judge anybody else. We’re just here to do the work that is required of you, so that you can organize your purpose.

Jen: That’s good.

Stedman: Your challenge, and your talents, and your skills, and your attributes, and all of those things that are relevant to who you can be so that you can create local impact based on your environment. Then if you want to go to another level you can do that. You can work on that. That requires another skillset. It requires another skillset.

So the message is for each one of us to be able to take responsibility for ourselves, and then be able to influence our own area of influence based on the environment that we’re in, and then do the best we can possibly do.

Jen: So you talk about the importance of emotional intelligence in a leader. This is a lot of the work that you lead us through. I’m curious what you think. It seems like women are equipped, however you want to think, whether they’re pre-programmed or shaped by society or both, to maybe have the edge here, perhaps, as highly emotionally intelligent creatures.

I wonder, how would you say that emotional intelligence helps a leader? Specifically for my audience, which is largely women, what are other skills that you have recognized that women possess, in a general way, that position them to be uniquely effective leaders?

Stedman: Well, I think that emotional intelligence is very important. Self-awareness is very important. I don’t know how you work on that without having an identity for yourself. I don’t know how you do that unless you know who you are, because you don’t even know what to work on.

So when we talk about emotional intelligence, you know, how can you control anything if you don’t start from the core of who you are? You haven’t even studied it. You haven’t even learned anything about it.

The thing that we all have is we all have 24 hours. The question of what you do with your 24 hours is very, very important. And women have that same 24 hours. They have the same drive. They have the same motivation. They might be physically different than men, but they can use their strengths, and their talents, and their abilities just like everybody else can use them.

There’s no . . .  The law of the jungle says only the strong survive. It’s about your strength. Just because you’re a man doesn’t mean that you possess any more attributes than women do in terms of leadership. It’s just a learned behavior. It’s learned. So you’re using all of your strengths, and talents, and weaknesses and being aware of that, and also being able to manage your emotions, which allows you now that you can be an effective leader. If you can work on that, if you can practice on that, if you can educate yourself about that, then you’re going to be more effective than anybody else.

Jen: That’s great. Let’s just say somebody’s listening and they’re more toward the beginning of this work, the beginning of really considering your teaching. You say that, “We literally cannot give to others what we do not have ourselves,” and you’re exactly right.

So if we want to be good leaders who do good things in the world, which we do, if we’re near the beginning, how would you say we begin to identify what it is we’re lacking, or what we need next, or what are first steps, perhaps, in order to become this really effective leader working out of his or her true identity?

Stedman: Well, if you don’t get this word, it’s over. The most important word is love. L-O-V-E, that’s the foundation for learning, thinking, developing, building, creating. What it does, it transforms your energy. What takes us out is really the lack of having positive energy in our life. What takes us out is dealing with all of the trauma and shame.

Jen: That’s good.

Stedman: What takes us out is not being able to manage our emotions because we’re so angry, and enraged, and we can’t control ourselves.

We have 60,000 thoughts in our head a day, and we’re all over the place, and we’re not focused. So love is where you . . .  that’s your foundation for building anything. Of course, it’s your foundation for organizing information and education. When I learned that, “Man, I can write down everything I love in my life, and then I can take my 24 hours and I can take information and education and make it relevant to the 24 hours I have based on my passions, based on my skills, based on my talents, based on my abilities, then that’s a competitive edge in the marketplace because most people are doing the same thing over and over every single day.” They’re not going anywhere. They’re not even thinking. They’re not even aware of what’s possible for them based on their potential as a human being.

Jen: Mmm.

Stedman: I can take a learning process and organize magazines and books, and get as much information as I can from technology, and I can download that to micromanage the program that’s relevant to my development and network that around people that have the same interests that I have, that have a vision, the same vision I might have, and to be able to co-partner with them, that makes me a better person and leader, and gets me to understand my field and my background, that’s about as close to freedom as I know.

Jen: That’s great. I love that.

One of your nine leadership steps is to build your dream team. From your standpoint and your extensive business history, you’ve had a long and wonderful career working with teams. What do you think a dream team looks like? How can we sort of open our hands a little bit, for those of us who are leading it, to be able to let it grow and develop using other people’s skills and ideas? How would you coach us on that when it’s sometimes hard for us to delegate and let go?

Stedman: Well, the center of building any kind of a team is having humility and not being so tightfisted that nothing gets in and nothing gets out, that you control every single thing. That nobody wants to deal with you because nobody likes you, and nobody really cares about you because you are so focused on your emotional background and your historical baggage, that you can’t get out of your own way. You keep visiting that historical baggage, which causes you to basically be out of balance and not treat people the way that you should be treating them.

Building a team is about having a relationship with people, being able to treat people nice, and also make people feel good about themselves. In order to be able to do that, you first have to feel good about who you are.

You have to have certain things in addition to that. Number one, get along with people. Number two, you got to have a vision of where you’re going. You want a shared vision of people who are going in the same direction. You want to develop win-wins as Stephen Covey says, who was a former mentor of mine, that you need a win-win situation where they win and you win. What’s in it for them? Can you make sure that they get what they want?

You need to have a clear alignment of where you’re going and how to set specific goals on what you want to achieve. You need to be able to have the resilience and the tenacity to overcome the obstacles that you face every single day. Everything’s not going to go the way it should go, but what you can do is you can control not so much what happens, but how you respond to it.

Jen: Right.

Stedman: So the biggest opportunity for leadership in a team, and this is for all team members, is to be able to reduce the anger and the rage you might have because you don’t agree with something. But you can maintain a certain level of loving energy so that you can, whatever happens, you don’t take it personally. It’s not personal. Then be able to just kind of go with the flow. If you flow like water, water kind of just flows. The impact that you can make is based on your talents, your skills, your abilities, and what you bring to the table. That will show up every single time.

Jen: Part of leadership is how to meet the needs and coach the people around us to sort of their highest point of contribution, including those younger than us. I have five kids. Two of them are in college, and two of them are in high school, and one’s in middle school. So I am parenting this whole group of young adults. Then in my world, in my community, I’m a leader of women, and I have a lot of young women.

I’m paying a lot of attention to the generation coming behind us. While they’re so well-educated and resourced in general, all those trends are on the rise, their anxiety and their stress seems to also be, it’s peaking with their opportunity. It’s a stressed-out generation. How would you suggest that we become good leaders to the generation behind us?

This is a lot of really great instruction, in my estimation, for teenagers and young adults, if they can begin to use this as building blocks for creating a really fulfilling life.

Do you work with young adults at all? How would you suggest that we begin introducing some of your work to them? Because they’re learning leadership too—maybe not at the highest level yet, but they will be. They will be in just a few years. I want to be able to confidently pass the leadership baton to them. How would you suggest we approach that?

Stedman: Well, I’ve been working with young people all of my life. I’ve taught at 150 schools, with one client actually, all over the country, teaching identity and identity leadership and the process for that. My focus is trying to get this teaching down to the earliest age possible so that young people will understand their ability to empower themselves based on who they are, and focus on their natural abilities—

Jen: That’s good.

Stedman: Which parents should be on the lookout for the natural abilities that your children have, so that they can begin to organize that at an early age, and then surround that natural ability with focused content that’s going to help them understand the disciplines that go with what they want to do in their life, and what makes them happy.

Jen: Hmm.

Stedman: And what makes them calm, and what gives them confidence. If you can teach them the importance of learning, and reading, and discovery, and you have 80 years to develop a process of continuous improvement.

Jen: That’s great.

Stedman: And all the things that they learn throughout the years in school, and in college they learn how to make those things applicable to their development, and they understand the importance of cognitive ability. Then being able to, hopefully, travel around and make things applicable. If you can’t travel, you go to museums, you go to places that are learning areas that will help you learn more, and create more, and develop more.

The most important thing is that their brain gets turned on, that their brain gets turned on because you’re reversing the learning system so everything is relevant to you, and that you’re empowered, and you can be the best leader you can possibly be, excuse me, at an early age. Now, how you really do that effectively, the parents have to first do it themselves.

Jen: Right.

Stedman: So they have to be role model for the process. Do you read? How successful are you in what you do? Are you focusing on what you love? All of those things are very important in the family.

Jen: That’s great. I appreciate that instruction.

I mentioned earlier, Stedman, that most of my listeners are women. It’s no mystery that women are underrepresented in leadership. There are not as many women proportionally at high levels of leadership, really, in virtually any industry.

As I’m thinking about them, and as you mentioned earlier, obviously, women are just as capable, just as . . .  all the possibilities exist for women in leadership as they do for men, obviously, intellectually, capacity-wise. If I’ve got a woman listening and she has really incredible and natural leadership skills, and she’s maybe facing an industry that is pretty male dominated, where would you suggest that women who want to advance themselves into leadership positions begin?

Stedman: Well, I think they have to begin with a mindset.

It really is about human development. That’s a label. We’re defined by these labels, these racial labels, and these gender labels, and with these class labels, and our house, and our car, and the money, and our title. We don’t realize the power that we bring and the power that we have. You can get beyond that and, again, focus on not how the world defines you but how you define yourself.

Also remember that whoever defines you will always define you as less than them. You got to be aware of the people around you and realize then that, “I need to be comfortable with myself.”

So the key is, are you comfortable with your own existence? Because when I meet you, and you’re not comfortable, then what’s the issue? Because you’re making me nervous because you have this thought about yourself, that you’re not as good as somebody else, and you’re bringing that to the table, and I see it in your eyes. You can’t fake it. You can size people up in about three seconds as soon as they walk through the door.

So you got to be able to be the real McCoy, so to speak, and to be authentic in your own development. That takes work for everybody.

Again, I go back to the most important word, which is love. That you carry love with you everywhere you go and you’re not angry, and mad, and upset, and blaming folks, and all of that. “Then you can take that anywhere. You can take it to any country. You can take it to any meeting. You can take it to any organization. You can take it to any team. You can take it to any community. You can take it to any event. You carry that with you and then people when they meet you they say, “Man, you’ve been able to transform your thinking, and your thoughts, and your feelings that were once negative and now you’re open and you show your leadership abilities to everybody you come in contact with.”

Jen: Stedman, you wrote a whole chapter on your amazing partner, Oprah. You wrote, “There’s no better qualified identity leader than Oprah Winfrey.” I couldn’t possibly agree with you more.

I’m curious what specific leadership attributes have you observed in Oprah over the years as you’ve watched her. We’ve grown up with you and Oprah, so we’ve watched you together for so long. As you’ve seen her really just come into a level of powerful leadership that really kind of defies imagination, I’m curious what it is that you see specifically in her, that you would say, “This is the stuff here. This is the secret sauce.”

Stedman: When you talk about an identity leader, she’s unbelievable. I’m around her. I see her all the time. I’m with her. We have lots of conversations about our lives, what we’re doing, and all of that. It’s just amazing to be able to be around someone, I’m so fortunate to be around someone that has done what she’s done for herself. To come from Mississippi and an outhouse in the back, scrubbing, washing clothes in a tub with her grandmother there. Coming from Mississippi, where for you as a person of color, especially a woman, it’s a failed environment. To be able to be who she’s become, to become who she has become, to me it’s like, I don’t even know what that is.

Jen: Right?

Stedman: You’re talking about the prototypical identity leader, she’s it.

Jen: Yep

Stedman: So I had to write about it, and write about her. I’m so proud of all the things she’s done throughout the years. I’m one of her best supporters in terms of, and one of her biggest supporters in terms of her being able to do what she wants to do, to self-actualize her potential, and to give so much back to so many other people.

Jen: Hmm.

Stedman: I’ve been able to learn from that and be around that, so I’m very fortunate to be able to get through my own stuff throughout the years and become who I need to be.

That’s what makes the relationship really special is that we respect each other based on our own individual achievements. We can come together as a team, and come together as partners and all of that. We love and care about each other, and that’s fantastic, but we can also be our own person.

Jen: Yes.

Stedman: That’s also a beautiful thing. We can also help each other, and we can share information, and talk about experiences that I have.

Jen: Yes.

Stedman: I’m on the ground. I do a lot of things on the ground. She’s in the air. She does a lot of things in television and the communication channels. She does all of that.

Jen: Yep.

Stedman: So we’re basically doing the same work, a lot of the same work, we just kind of do it differently.

Jen: How long have you guys been together? It’s been a long time.

Stedman: Yeah, a long time.

Jen: Yeah. We’ve seen you both change over the years. From your hair to your look, it’s been just amazing documentation of your lives for the last few decades.

We’ve learned so much from both of you. My generation considers you guys some of our greatest teachers. We also feel like we have learned such a great deal just by observation, even though for us it’s remotely. We’re grateful for all that you have given to the world, that you continue to give to the world, the way that you are leading out of love and authenticity, out of soul, and out of nurture.

I just believe it’s the message we need right now. I think this is the stuff that’s going to heal the world. I think it’s the stuff that is interestingly enough, maybe even ironically, going to be the best, highest form of leadership, and bring us into a greater place of effectiveness. We like what you’re putting out into the world. We’re picking up what you’re laying down. We are paying attention, and we’re a grateful audience.

Now, I would love to just ask you three quick wrap-up questions, just kind of off the top of your head.

Here’s the first one. Throughout your life, let’s just say Oprah, we’ll put Oprah in her own category. She can’t be the answer. What leader, or leaders for that matter, have been your north stars, one of your best teachers in your life?

Stedman: Nelson Mandela. We’ve spent some time with him at the safari, on the safari. We were on the President’s plane with him, his plane that takes him around. I had a chance, after he was released from Pollsmoor, to have dinner with him. I’ve spent a lot of time in South Africa, working over there early on during apartheid, taking clothes over there. So I spent a lot of time with this gentleman Nelson Mandela and his family. I was over there when Winnie Mandela’s house burned down, all that. He educated his kids. I’m just kind of giving you some background. That is, just to be able to know that he was in prison for 27 years.

Jen: Right.

Stedman: 27 years in prison. The greatest story of freedom ever to be told. Then to come out of prison and be the president of his own country that enslaved him, and to come out with a spirit of not hate and not negativity, but to come out with a spirit of love, and to be able to transform that whole country based on that is the greatest lesson in the world. The beautiful thing about that lesson is that every leader has the opportunity, like King did, to use the most powerful word in the world as a way to transform themselves first and then help other people transform themselves.

Jen: That’s beautiful. Thank you for talking about him. He has also been so special to us.

Here’s the second one. I believe that the best leaders are lifelong learners. I’m curious, what’s maybe one new thing that you have learned or are learning recently?

Stedman: Well, I’m going to kind of share my learning process with you. I get about seven newspapers a day.

For me it starts with reading newspapers almost every day. Maybe I’ll miss five days out of the whole year going through the newspapers.

Jen: Wow.

Stedman: So I go through the newspapers, and I don’t read everything but I’m looking for specific information that’s relevant to my hobbies, my travel, technology, my business, anything that’s relevant to helping me learn more about what I’m focusing on.

Then I take magazines and I have all the magazines. Then I begin to dissect that information. I’ll pull out pages and all of that and record that.

Then I go to books. Then to be able to utilize the internet, the technology, as a way to organize and download content, articles, and be able to organize a process for kind of sending you into the global marketplace so that you can define who you are, and create who you want to become based on developing a process of continuous improvement every day.

Now you get to practice work. You got to be able to change your thinking every single day. That’s my learning process.

Jen: Wow.

Stedman: If I continually do that over and over and over, I’m going to be able to make good choices based on whatever comes up. Success is when preparation meets opportunity. It’s the preparation that gets you ready for life. It’s the preparation that gets you ready for the next day. It’s the preparation that helps build your business. It’s the preparation that gets you to write your next book. It’s the preparation that keeps you in the game. So it’s not just doing, doing, doing, going all over the place, focusing on the external world as a way to give everything away. It’s preparing yourself internally based on who you want to become, who you can become, and it’s visualizing what’s possible for you as a person.

Jen: You know what’s funny, as I was listening to you say that thinking, “Golly. Five, six, seven newspapers a day. Who has the time?” But interestingly, a lot of people would say, “I don’t have time for that,” but they’ve managed to have time for social media, or they’ve managed to have time for TV. We actually do have the time. It just matters how we spend it. I like the intentionality of that. So if you’ve got an hour, you can blow it or you can really use it wisely, and with a great deal of intention, and sort of be a learner and be prepared for your next thing. Thank you for that. I love hearing your process. That is really, that’s top drawer. That is serious input.

Stedman: I can say this. Work-life balance is not short-term. Work-life balance is long-term. Over a long period of time you know what you need to focus on. Well it’s not going to happen overnight. It happens because you want to improve the quality of your life over a long-term period. You want to be able to go deep in your development so you’re really happy about your life, and eliminate all the time-wasters and all the noise around you, which is what’s happening right now. Gallup says that 64% of the people in the workforce are not engaged.

Jen: Wow.

Stedman: They’re not engaged because they’re doing this all day long. Focusing on what? Doing things that are not relevant to their development. That’s why it’s so critical to understand who you are, so that you can organize things that are relevant to your development and eliminate things that are not.

Jen: Hmm. Last question. So grateful for your time. This is actually a question that we love and we ask every guest this final question. Your answer can be, it can be meaningful and serious, or it can be absolutely silly, and small, and ridiculous. It’s just completely up to you. But the question is, what is saving your life right now?

Stedman: What is saving my life right now is my ability to learn, and my ability to apply that learning to who I am. That always saves my life.

Jen: Oh, I love it. I love it, and I love your book. We are gobbling it up over here in our world. It’s really useful to me.

I’m really grateful for your work in leadership, and your instruction, and your approach. I appreciate it because I know you’ve learned it in the trenches. I know that you have, these are battles that you have fought and won. This is coming out of a lifetime of integrated work out of a really strong identity. That comes through in every word, in every paragraph.

Then of course, it’s so incredibly useful. Like you said, this is the kind of instruction that can be put in anybody’s hands, in any capacity, in any level, at any point along the leadership continuum, with any label. I thank you for making it accessible to normal people who are wanting to be good leaders in their lives, however big or small that looks, because this is incredibly useful instruction.

Would you just tell my listeners quickly where they can find you, and where they can find more about your book, and anything else that you are working on or on the horizon?

Stedman: Well, first of all, thank you so much for who you are. Thank you so much for the work that you do. Thank you so much for the service that you give to so many people, especially women.

Jen: Thank you.

Stedman: is my website. Also, you can get the book at Amazon, of course, and other bookstores around the country. So, pretty much it.

Jen: Perfect.

Stedman: I appreciate the opportunity to be able to share the message and the process, because that’s my mission in life and I’ve dedicated my life to doing that.

Jen: Thank you for doing so. We are grateful to learn from you, to learn from Oprah, and from this just powerful presence that you have in our world. It’s very, very meaningful to so many of us.

Thank you so much, Stedman, for your time today. I’m so glad and tickled that my community is going to get to hear from you this just incredible information. I appreciate you so much being on today.

Stedman: Thank you so much. Thank you.

Jen: Thank you.

Super grateful to have Stedman Graham on today. I love it. I love it.

I am grateful for his leadership chops. He’s just no joke. Stedman is an incredible businessman, and thinker, and leader, and has been. He’s done the work. He’s sat under some of the greatest leadership in the world. I find his instruction trustworthy, and good, and coming out of a deep sense of love and care rather than fear and shame. This is the stuff we all believe in.

So thankful to him, thankful for his work. Really, really glad to talk about his book, Identity Leadership, which as always, we will have linked over at We’ll have the whole thing. Everything Stedman talked about, all his socials, website, links to his books, links to anything else we’re going to add in there for you. Always be sure to use that resource.

Thank you for listening. Hey, thanks for sharing our podcast. I’ve been on the road a lot, on tour, and so I talk to a ton of podcast listeners out there. You tell me over and over how often you share episodes, that you just copy links and you send them around on text threads, or you put them on your social media accounts, or you send them through email to specific people. That’s just meaningful to me. Thank you for doing that. Thank you for hearing a message that you think is going to serve somebody that you love, or that you’d like your community to hear and just sharing it. That is so fabulous.

I’m grateful to you for being such engaged listeners. Thanks for subscribing, sharing, rating, reviewing, all of it. It’s just, you are the greatest, the greatest podcast community ever.

We are steering the ship into For the Love of Powerhouse Women. I mean to tell you, wowsies, okay? We got someone on here to just blow your hair back. I cannot wait for you to listen to this series. I’m thankful, again, to Stedman for setting us up on getting us ready for powerful women, and thankful to him, absolutely for his time.

So you guys, have a great week, and I’ll see you next time.

Narrator: That’s it for today’s show. Hope you enjoyed this chat. Be sure to subscribe to my mom’s podcast and give it a “thumbs up” rating if you like it. From the whole Hatmaker family, hope you have a great week and see you next time!

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