Today’s guest, Suleika Jaouad, first captured our collective hearts with her searing memoir Between Two Kingdoms — a book that traced her diagnosis of leukemia, the brutal treatment that followed, and the long, complicated journey of coming home to herself again. It was a Jen Hatmaker Book Club selection back in March 2023, and it has stayed with so many of us.
Suleika is an Emmy Award–winning journalist, bestselling author, speaker, and artist whose work asks some of the biggest questions humans ever face: What does it mean to live when life has been shattered? How do we hold hope and devastation at the same time? What does healing actually look like when recovery isn’t linear, or even guaranteed?
She is also the founder of The Isolation Journals, a global creative community of more than 100,000 writers, artists, and curious souls who use storytelling and imagination as tools for transformation. Her latest book, The Book of Alchemy, feels is a continuation of her journey — filled with essays, prompts, and reflections from over 100 contributors across disciplines. It’s an invitation to explore how we turn pain into meaning, uncertainty into beauty, and our lives into art.
Suleika speaks so generously about what it means to live in the middle — between diagnosis and remission, despair and joy, isolation and connection — and how storytelling helps us metabolize what we’ve lived through. Whether you’re a writer, an artist, someone who’s walking through your own valley, or simply trying to make sense of your story, this episode will speak to you.
We’re revisiting one of our most-loved conversations from this show—an exploration of how transformation takes shape in our lives and how we can bravely meet it, even when it’s terrifying.
In this encore episode, we look back on Jen’s conversation with poet and community-builder Joy Sullivan, whose own “chosen change” became a leap toward more sanity, more love, and more joy.
After years of living according to scripts written by others, Joy found herself standing at a crossroads, feeling the pull of something deeper and more true. What followed was a radical leap into the unknown—a move that reshaped her life, her faith, and her art, including her book ‘Instructions for Traveling West’ – a collection for anyone flinging themselves into their own fresh starts.
Together, she and Jen talk about the “incremental scoots” we make before the big leap, the beauty and ache of reinvention, and how stillness can become a sacred space for clarity. Joy shares her story of walking into the unknown and learning to trust her intuition along the way.
In this episode, we reflect on:
- The difference between a change that happens to us and one we choose
- Embracing loneliness and stillness as paths to self-discovery
- Lessons that taught Joy to love herself more deeply
- Why poetry gives language to what we cannot say aloud
If you’re feeling the pull toward something new but uncertain, this encore offers a gentle reminder that change—though often uncomfortable—is where our truest selves begin to emerge.
As a luminary in contemporary literature, Elizabeth Gilbert’s writing has shaped the zeitgeist through adventure, spiritual exploration, creativity, and what it means to live a life of integrity. Her work consistently resonates with a global audience, prompting introspection and inspiring personal journeys of self-discovery.
In this episode, Elizabeth Gilbert delves into the intricate narratives woven within her latest book, All the Way to the River: Love, Loss, and Liberation. Liz traces the evolving nature of her bond with Rayya Elias, illustrating how the relationship transitioned from a cherished best friend to a trusted neighbor, then blossomed into a profound creative muse, and ultimately became a romantic partner—her “person.” This deeply significant relationship unfolded against the harrowing backdrop of Rayya’s terminal pancreatic cancer diagnosis and her courageous, yet often arduous, battle with addiction.
In a conversation full of heart and unabashed vulnerability, Liz reflects on her own struggles with people-pleasing, addiction, and finding emotional and spiritual sobriety, discussing what it looks like to take accountability for one’s own well-being to write a life story that ends with dignity.
Today, Jen has a discussion with her longtime friend, brilliant thought-leader and activist, Austin Channing Brown. You probably know Austin from her viral first book, I’m Still Here: Black Dignity in a World Made for Whiteness, which flew off shelves in 2020 following the murder of George Floyd, as we were witnessing worldwide protests, calls for police reform, and a radical change to our racial justice systems. Countless people trusted Austin to help them unpack and understand the racial reckoning going on in our country at that time.
Now, Austin is releasing a new project that shares some of her hard-fought learnings gained since that tumultuous time. Full of Myself: Black Womanhood and the Journey to Self-Possession is a love letter to the black women, like Austin herself, who are exhausted from being everything to everyone but themselves. Across essays titled “I Love Myself When I Am Laughing,” “When I Am Awkward,” “When I Am Failing,” and more, Austin celebrates the fullness of her humanity. Each chapter becomes a mirror, asking women—especially Black women—to consider where they’ve given themselves away and what it would mean to live with self-possession instead.
Highlights from this conversation include:
- What it means to Austin to be “full of herself”—a phrase she reclaimed as an act of resistance, dignity, and spiritual integrity
- What happens in our bodies when we operate out of alignment with ourselves
- What it means to be a Black woman striving to live fully in a world that often demands her silence, her labor, and her conformity
- And the inspirational, life-saving advice that Austin received from activist, Tarana Burke
This is such a good conversation starter and one to be shared, for sure.
It’s time for another beloved encore presentation and this time we are bringing back this powerful podcast therapy session for your benefit and enjoyment.
Dr. Sara Kuburic, an existential psychotherapist and author behind The @Millennial.Therapist, offers profound insights into taking ownership of our lives. Dr. Kuburic champions the idea that we are free and responsible agents, shaping our own development through our choices. While it’s easy to blame external forces for unhappiness, she encourages us to embrace the amazing opportunity to engage in life fully. She poses a crucial question: how much of what we face is inflicted by us, and how much just happens? As a therapist, she equips people with tools to navigate life’s challenges, asking: “what can you change or how can you change your attitude so the situation is less painful for you?” Beyond existential thought, Jen and Dr. Kuburic explore self-loss and how we can unknowingly deceive ourselves into believing we’re living the life we desire, even as our bodies signal distress through depression, anxiety, and panic.
Jen and Dr. Kuburic get honest about:
- The difference between loving the “idea” of who you are versus who you actually are, and how to stop self-deception.
- The point when avoiding change becomes more painful than embracing it.
- Acknowledging our physical limits: how our bodies send red flags like anxiety, fear, or panic, even when we feel strong.
- How an all-consuming dedication to making something work, even if it’s not right for us, can lead to our weakest moments if we don’t face the truth.
