Loud-Quitting, Zero Damns, and Midlife Glow-Ups: Bits of Wisdom from the For the Love Listening Community

Jen Hatmaker:
Hey everybody, welcome to the show.

Amy Hardin:
Hi, welcome.

Jen Hatmaker: We are delighted to have you here. You guys, this is such a fun episode. The first of its kind. The first of its kind. We’ve been talking about doing this for a handful of months and it’s just taken, it’s a puzzle and we had to put all the pieces in place before we could like actually do it and today’s the day.

I don’t wanna, okay, well all I’m gonna tell you upfront is that today’s episode features you the listener based on messages you left us. That’s all I’m going to say for right now. but it’s really, really fun. So some of you guys are about to hear your voice and your question slash comment and our response to it in just a minute. And that is fun. Cause we love you.

First of all, though, on our end of life, it’s spring break here in Texas.

You’re still in spring break life because you have kids in school. have kids in school. Yeah. What are you doing? Or are you doing something?

Amy Hardin: Yeah, tomorrow maybe. At some point we’re driving to Colorado. That’s my favorite. My niece plays lacrosse for Colorado Mesa, so we’re going to go up and watch her play. Gosh. So, and you know, we drive everywhere and driving to Grand Junction.

Jen Hatmaker: At the far western edge of Colorado. To watch a lacrosse game seems reasonable to us.

Jen Hatmaker: Sure does.  Are all four sons coming?

Amy Hardin: No.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, I didn’t figure who’s going?

Amy Hardin: Youngers are coming.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay, so listen, when you have done a 38 hour road trip with four boys in the car and then you just go down to two, piece of cake.

Amy Hardin: Yeah. Piece of cake.

Jen Hatmaker: Who drives?

Amy Hardin: Brad mostly.  I’ll take a leg.

Jen Hatmaker: Which is how long for you?

Amy Hardin: Like two hours. He takes a nap and then he drives again. I mean I’ve done 12 hours alone quite a few times if it’s just me and the kids but if he’s in the car he wants to drive.

Jen Hatmaker: And you’re just a kept woman. Just a little lady in the passenger seat.

Amy Hardin: I believe I believe we have four books to read next week and so that’s what I’ll do.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh my God, that is so true. Cause you should know, listener, that we research all of our guests and their books and their incredible things that they’re doing in the world. So yeah, we’re we’ve got a bunch coming up. That’ll keep you busy.

Amy Hardin: So I’m going to do go to Colorado. It’s colder. I mean, still a good way. Yeah, it’s it’s cold. And so we’re not camping. And I’m going to probably stay in town and read.

Jen Hatmaker: My God. I’m happy about it. That’s my kind of trip.

Amy Hardin: What are you doing? You do not have kids in school anymore.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s correct. Like I had to remember that it’s spring break. Yeah. That didn’t even, it wasn’t even on my radar and you know, Remy’s at her gap program right now. So, Ben is, I don’t know. I don’t know what everybody’s doing anymore. You know, I’m not in charge of their calendars and their lives. And so my sister-in-law, Sarah was just texting.last week and she goes, does anybody want to go, should we rent a lake house on LBJ for three days for spring break? And I was like, yes. The answer is yes. As you know, that is where we had our lake house for all those years. It’s like, I know every nook and cranny of LBJ all around Kingsland. Like all the way up, every nook and cranny. Every sandbar. Even the one that unfortunately came to us because of the flood. Do remember about that one?

Amy Hardin: I do.

Jen Hatmaker: I mean, real sad about the flood, you know, and how many homes it ruined. But the upside was it left a sandbar in the dead center of the lake slash river, as my friend Tara always reminds me. It’s not a lake. It’s not a lake. And…all these boats, we would just like pull the boat up to it and just sort of beach it right there in the middle of the lake river. But I haven’t been out there in hell, what, four years? So I have summoned the boyfriend and I was like, we’re gonna have like a family lake house. So what time can I pick you up from the airport?

And it just kind of happened to work out because you’re gone. So we didn’t have podcasts scheduled. yeah. Cause normally if a, if a family member called and said, Hey, any chance you can take off just two weekdays next week, the answer would be never. Right. I would be like, well, I guess let me just try to move these 100 things on my calendar but like you’re gone. I bailed. I’m like, well, since Amy’s phoning in her job, I mean, I guess we both can. Super excited about that.

And like for those of you listening, spring break in Texas, like it’s warm. You know, we’re in bathing suits and shorts and this is the launch of our summer, to be honest. Not for you though. You’ll be in the mountains.

Amy Hardin: Yes. In sweatshirts. You know, it still snows in Colorado in March, for sure. My nieces are snowboarding today.

Jen Hatmaker: Are you going for a week? More or less?

Amy Hardin: Like four days maybe? Because it’s a day and a half drive, right? I honestly don’t know. It is. And we do, we make detours. Like we stop and see a friend in New Mexico. We check on him. Brad’s old barber.

Jen Hatmaker: What? That’s so random.

Amy Hardin: I know.

Jen Hatmaker: Brad’s old barber?

Amy Hardin: Yes, from high school. He lives in the oldest home in Fort Sumner. It survived the flood from the late 1800s. It was like one of the only buildings that survived the flood and he lives there with his great Dane. His name’s Wild Bill.

Jen Hatmaker: It isn’t.

Amy Hardin: He chops his own firewood.

Jen Hatmaker: His name’s not Wild Bill. I don’t, you’re, that’s too much.

Amy Hardin: We call him Uncle Bill, but.

Jen Hatmaker: It’s a bridge too far.

Amy Hardin: Yeah, so we’ll probably stop and check on him. Okay. Forth Sumner. Like 30 minutes west of Clovis, two hours west of Lubbock.

Jen Hatmaker: Got it. Got it. So he’s just out there in the desert. It’s the middle of nowhere.

Amy Hardin: Yeah, yeah, yeah. He has to drive to Amarillo to the VA hospital.

Jen Hatmaker: That feels hard. Well, no wonder it’s the oldest house in the town. There’s no other homes there.

Amy Hardin: There’s a few. I mean, it’s like the one out of the 12. It’s technically a village, I think.

Jen Hatmaker: OK, that’s kind of cute.

Amy Hardin: That’s our that’s our stop off.

Jen Hatmaker: OK, I love this. You know, I love Colorado.

Amy Hardin: Yes, that’s my choice.

Jen Hatmaker: That is my choice. Although my choice, as you know, would be to fly there. That’s far. It is. I mean that’s pretty far but you know what also a road trip can be fun. I’ve done my last two big trips with my kids, road trips. Yeah. And we’ve had a good time.

Amy Hardin: We just have too many kids and too much gear. Yeah. But as they leave the nest and or don’t travel with us we are starting to fly more places.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah that makes sense to you. So. you’re not gonna have this on this trip, but one of my favorite things about now doing road trips with grown kids is they drive. And I don’t care. Other people, other women in the community were like, I could never relax. I’m like, I can. I can, I sat in the back seat of my own car that I pay for, because the boys are bossy about driving. They wanna drive. They’re like, move. I’m like, just say less. I will get in the backseat with my book and my snacks and my pillow and my headphones and hope for the best.

Amy Hardin: My young’s drive.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh, that’s true. They do.

Amy Hardin: But there’s supposed to be a windstorm, so probably we’re not going to let them drive. Oh, I know.

Jen Hatmaker: The weather’s been. I saw that like on a Lubbock. Unhinged. saw some video from Lubbock last week and it just like it looked like a tornado but it was just a straight during the day. So windy out there and so dusty.

Okay, well that’s enough of that. So you’re going to Colorado, I’m going to the lake. I don’t even really have a spring break, but you know what? I do now. Well, you get spring break for another two years. Cause of Remy? Cause of me. I see what you’re saying.

Amy Hardin: You’re welcome.

Jen Hatmaker: What else am I supposed to do? I don’t have my co-host here. So I guess I’ll just not do any of my work. You know, I have other work. Like I could technically fill those days with the other work, but I’m like, well, I guess peace. You wanted to hustle.

Well, listen up you guys. Let me tell you about this episode. We are taking a break from our normal format, which we love. We love interviewing all these like superstars.

But if you’ve been listening lately to our last handful of episodes, we have been asking for you, our listeners, to leave us messages over at jenhatmaker.com. It’s under the podcast tab and there’s a send voicemail button, it’s gonna seem obvious, button. And we’ve been asking for your stuff, like little stories related to segments we’ve been doing or your response to episodes we’ve been hosting or conversations we’ve been having and it’s been fun going through your messages.

So as promised, we’re going to share some of our favorites today. I’m looking forward to this.

Amy Hardin: Yes, very much. I’ve loved listening to them. Pepper’s been sending us some and they’ve run the gamut from like tender and vulnerable to hysterical. appropriate for the podcast.

Jen Hatmaker: Which we encourage. Yes, please, for our sake, keep those coming. They’ve all been great. And so we’re gonna share some with you right now. So here is our first voicemail. Now this listener was anonymous and did not leave her name, but this was her response on having no more dams to give.

Anonymous Caller #1: Okay, I have zero damns to give about making decisions about what I look like based on what’s appropriate, in air quotes, appropriate for my age and my size. I’m a fat girl, I’m 53 years old, and I will wear vertical stripes. large florals, bright colors, but whatever. Just stuff that is quote, too young for me, I don’t care. We need to wear what we feel comfortable in, what we feel pretty in, what suits our style and our personality. There aren’t any rules. I don’t care what anyone thinks about whether I should or shouldn’t be looking a certain way. No damns to give about that.

Jen Hatmaker: We love her. I like how she said, look, I can’t care about what you think about my thighs. Yeah. Say less ma’am. What are your thoughts on this? I think I know your thoughts.

Amy Hardin: Yeah. I’m completely on board about the confidence and being secure enough to say, I’m going to wear what I want. Obviously I have gone that direction as well. Although I think a lot of times I say because I don’t care. That’s not true. I, years ago, became comfortable with my outside matching my inside. So if I feel bad, I don’t mind not looking great. But I do care. My goal is to not call attention to myself. So if I’m going to a place where people are dressed and have red lipstick on, I will try to blend in.

Jen Hatmaker: Here’s what’s making me laugh. So our producer is Pepper, you guys, and so he works a lot on our scripting and our interview guides and just particularly something like this that’s so tech heavy. Anyway, on this piece of our guide for this episode, on this particular voicemail, he wrote, possible talking points, Amy’s black uniform. I would like those of you looking at us on YouTube to take a notice here. She’s in black from head to toe. And next to it, it says, Jen’s abiding love for graphic tees. And I’m literally wearing a shirt that says El Jefe right now, the boss. Like, we didn’t try to fit into his stereotype of us. We just are the stereotype.

I love the confidence. That is what I love. And also as somebody who, feel like I’m getting jerked around by all the trends that keep coming and going and I get so confused by it. Like, okay, here’s a premier example. I’ve been asking the internet for some time to help me figure out what to do with the socks. There’s a new way to do socks. There’s a new way to do socks apparently, particularly with sneakers.

Amy Hardin: What do you mean?

Jen Hatmaker: Oh yeah, see this is a great question you’re asking. you know, sneakers onboarded into the world were like, hooray, hooray for it. And we would wear what makes sense. Like, no shows. Do you know I’m saying? Like, just little ankle, whatever these socks are that I have on right now. That’s what I No shows. Yeah. That’s just what everybody, that’s just what it was. And to me, that’s what looks cute too, to this day. And then all of a sudden a new sock situation presented itself. Like this is maybe, well, I don’t know. I’m always behind. Maybe it was two years ago, but, and everybody was saying, we don’t wear no shows anymore. We now wear like socks that come up, like athletic socks. And I was like, so it just cuts into my cankles? That’s not cute. I don’t need my like leg flesh coming over the top of my sock, that’s not pretty.

And so I kept asking people to help me know about it and nobody’s good at it. And so this is the problem. This is why I love this message from this particular listener. This is not one week ago from Amazon. I ordered the taller socks cause I just didn’t know. like, well, you know, I’m famously bad at like following the trends and I’m always behind. And so maybe if this is the thing. And so I got like taller white socks to go with my sneakers which I wear all the time. And I don’t remember what I was doing. I think I was just running errands and I put on leggings and then I put on the tall socks and my sneakers and I looked at myself in the mirror and I burst out laughing. I was like, you look ridiculous. Ridiculous. And like she said, I don’t care what anybody says. I took them right off. Immediately off. I put on my like little no shows and I’m just like, I will do what I want with my socks. So this is it, man. If you’re looking, look, this is it, YouTube. You will see my naked ankles. You will see them. And that’s just all there is to it.

Amy Hardin: When I get really frustrated with, I don’t know, when I feel bad about not caring more, I remember that scene from Devil Wears Prada where she’s like, you think you don’t care and you’re cerulean blue…. So I don’t disparage people who really do care about fashion. But the amount of days we have wasted in our life trying to keep up with the trends and the and then trying to buy sustainable, also the trends change too fast.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s all true. I can’t. And the size of our bodies. Yeah. Well, I mean, just what year is it? That depends on what size I wear. But also like for people that absolutely love fashion and they’re like, I love horizontal stripes and I’m not supposed to wear them, but I want to because I love them. We get to live. So if that means that your style is fashion maximalist and you are going to mix and match patterns and you’re gonna wear whatever length of skirt you damn well feel like and live your life.

Amy Hardin: Yes at whatever age you are. And size. There’s a poem about when I’m an old woman I’m gonna wear purple. Yeah yeah yeah. And I used to think God I can’t wait till I’m an old woman and I can just wear whatever I want like the giant turquoise necklace. Sure sure sure. And then I was like well what what age is old. How old do have to be to do what you want? We’re not waiting around for that anymore. To be your own boss. We’re to be your own boss. was yesterday. Okay. So yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Yes. I fully support this anonymous call or fully support. my gosh. I am also just last note on this, very drawn to people who are clearly doing their own fashion thing. I’m, I am intrigued by that. Like when I look at you and I go, this is your deal. This is your point of view. You are gonna mix and matches however you feel like. You are gonna wear white after labor. You’re gonna do whatever you want. I like that. I’m drawn to the confidence. I am drawn to the confidence. And also these rules are invented.

Amy Hardin: It’s all made up. It’s made up. It’s art. It can be art, but it’s also the societal rules are made up. So everybody wear what you want.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay. So we say yes to her. All right, you guys, we have the next voicemail, which is from Naomi, and this was her thoughts, bye, I like this one, on no longer managing other people’s emotions. Take a listen.

Naomi: [missing audio]

Amy Hardin: You’re way better at this than so I’m gonna let you go first.

Jen Hatmaker: I don’t know that I am. I know that I am trying. This is the epitome of codependency work. So this has been one of my heaviest lifts for the last almost five years. This reminds me first of all listener if you would like if your head just about knotted off your shoulders like somebody helped me to go to there, you should a hundred percent go back and listen to the episode on the show with Melody Beattie, who wrote the Bible. She wrote Codependent No More. And she is an excellent resource for this idea, as is Mel Robbins, who we just had on the podcast recently. This is essentially the crux of her theory as well. Let them. Let them feel how they feel. Let them be pissed. Let them be mad. Let them be sad. Let them let the chips fall where they actually may. Anyway. What are your thoughts on this?

Amy Hardin: It’s a lifelong goal. think everybody should strive towards this. It’s so much work to even recognize it. Like that alone is some really heavy lifting to realize that that’s your pattern. And I have done a lot of work in letting people make their own decisions. Like the past five years, sort of understanding they’re going to be their own people. They’re going to find their own path. Like when they’re this age, you know, teens and older, you really transition from parenting like a cop to parenting like a coach. And then you’re a consultant. I have not mastered really at all the managing emotions. We talk about the importance of emotions and mental health and always talk about Brené‘s Atlas of the Heart book. But my Spidey senses know when anyone is a little unstable. And so every single day, at least twice, when someone walks in the room, I say, what’s wrong? I’m just still on high alert for something going wrong.

Jen Hatmaker: Totally. And it’s tricky because like, letting the kids make their own decisions is like the bones but letting them manage their own emotions is all the soft tissue and it is much harder. For me, I don’t know how to suss it out exactly, but whether it was like the narrative we received, the internal overdeveloped sense of responsibility I just walk around with, or what I kind of see in my peers and sideways, I have always attached caring, see, I’m already soft selling it. Feeling responsible for other people’s happiness shapeshifts as love. So like the message that I tell myself is this is being loving. Obviously. I love you. Right. Therefore I don’t want you to feel disappointed. I love you. Therefore I don’t want you to feel discouraged or in some cases, it’s hard for me to watch you experience the consequences of your own decisions. Or just regular old run of the mill discomfort. You’re uncomfortable. You’ve hit a spot, then it’s rubbing and you don’t know how to manage your own discomfort. Rather than just letting you work it out, I wanna come in with whatever solutions, I wanna talk it to damn death. I think I have talked to my kids till their ears bleed sometimes.

This is the thing. And it’s so funny, even when I was listening to Naomi’s message, even as like the hugest part of my brain is like, agree, agree, agree. As she is saying it, I also feel that internal tick, like it feels mean. It feels like I don’t care about you having a hard time. I am not a part of your problem solving, you know? No, I do.

Amy Hardin: I do not know where the line is on recognizing our family systems, like past mistakes we’ve made parenting, talking about that in a healthy way, but then also giving them the time to work it out. Like I want to overanalyze it right now when I’ve noticed that you’re a little off kilter. And when they say nothing’s wrong, why do you always ask that? What’s wrong with you? Like then I’m activated because I know something is a little off, but right in the moment I want them to say, well, my science teacher said this and I felt this and like I want a full. Yeah, let’s do the deep dive. Yes, in the moment when I feel uncomfortable.

Jen Hatmaker: So it’s that’s key. It’s because we’re uncomfortable with their discomfort.

Amy Hardin: If they can name it, then I’m like, okay, I’m proud of you for working through that and for including me. But a lot of times I go back to feeling responsible because it’s something I’ve done in my parenting 10 years ago, like that time when you were in fourth grade and I handled this real badly. And so now you can’t handle this new thing. So that’s why I want to jump in to correct an old wrong instead of just letting it play out.

Jen Hatmaker: And that is the thing, like with some of the choices, those are easier for me to let them just roll out. It’s the feelings. I am in a very current, very VVV current scenario right now where I had a very light bulb came on over my head last week because of reasons, because of scenarios, because of conversations. And I went, Jen, you are not responsible for making this child person be happy. You’re not. And no amount of work, effort, onboarding, intervention, none of it is going, well, it hasn’t worked thus far to make a child happy. And so I literally had to just sit myself down and go, if I have a child who kind of wants to be unhappy and highly disappointed in life their entire life, that’s their choice. That is their choice. That’s their choice. I don’t want that for that child. I don’t want that. don’t, I don’t, that doesn’t make me happy, but I am not, not only am I not responsible for that, I can’t do it. I can’t make it happen out of will. I broke up with my effort last week. I really did. I really did.

Amy Hardin: I’m really proud of you.

Jen Hatmaker: Okay. Well, we’ll see. a big step. Yep. We’ll see. But I can tell in the way in which I have navigated the last week and a half or whatever it was, I’m like, mm-hmm. This was a little bit like a loud quitting. Where it’s like, and I, cause I did, I loud quit it to the person. I said, this is the end of the road for me. So we’ll see how that goes, but. Let me know. I’ll let you know. It’s hard. This is hard. It is.

I think that’s why we all need to just keep going back and reading Melody’s book. It’s so true. And the thing is, the damnedest thing about it all is once we finally stop our frantic interventions, to manage someone else’s life, who’s grown, who, it’s their life to manage. That is so ironically often when they finally break through. When they figure out, this is in my hands. Right, because it turns out everybody has to do their own work, even our kids. It’s just real. Yeah. It’s just real. Like even when I used to hear that, I would think that is probably mostly true but I am also so powerful and influencer, right? In the lives of my people that I believe I can bend the arc toward the direction. I really think I think that. Like if I just get the words right, if I get my speech right, if I find the right environment for this person, if I adjust all the dials so that this person can finally flourish. But if that worked, it would have worked by now.

So anyways, we’re with you, Naomi. Man. Let’s come back to that. Let’s revisit that. Cause that’s work for me. That’s, this is my most current, most challenging work.

So now that brings me, mentioned just a second go loud quitting. We had just like two weeks ago, we had Lisa Congdon on the show and you will absolutely recognize her art. is wildly successful.

Amy Hardin: Right here. I really did order it.

Jen Hatmaker: You really did.

You have for sure seen her stuff in Target. It’s very specific. Anyway, I loved having her on and she’s our age and she told us about loud quitting, which I have not stopped thinking about.

So she’s like, I’m going to quit whatever I’m going to quit. So whether it’s like a pattern, an obligation, in some cases, like an unhealthy relationship, it doesn’t really matter. Whatever you’re going to quit that’s no longer serving you. She added the caveat, I’m going to do it loudly. And what she meant by that was clearly, like, I’m not just going to slip away out of side door. I’m not going to be passive aggressive. I’m not just going to take my hands off it and hope nobody notices my absence. I’m going to say just clearly, this is no longer serving me and these are my boundaries or this is what I’m gonna do from here on out. And I loved it.

So in the spirit of loud quitting, you guys, this is a message from listener, Molly.

Molly: [missing audio]

Jen Hatmaker: Mmm. This is similar. This is ancillary conversation that apparently we’re all having right now. This is an inside job. The way that Molly has set this up, like it’s, she’s talking not just about mattering, mattering and being a factor that counts. It matters in her own life, but not feeling guilty about that.

Amy Hardin: Yes. Which those are two very distinct things.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right. Exactly. That sense of I’m doing something wrong.

Amy Hardin: Right. And I think a key part of that is giving up on the duality. Like it’s not either or. It is yes and. You can do both. And we’ve heard our whole lives the put the air mask, oxygen mask on yourself, but not really believed it. But it turns out it’s true and we can do both.

Jen Hatmaker: It is true. We can do both. That is just, this is not binary. It does not mean when a woman in any way prioritizes her feelings about any given thing or how something affects her or even hell her preferences, what she wants, like what she is craving that you, that you either get to be that person or you get to be the person who absolutely puts her entire psyche on a top shelf to get to when the last kid leaves the house.

That’s just crazy.

Amy Hardin: How did we get here?

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, I know. How did we get here is true. And I think that I wonder if there are kind of two buckets for how women tend to feel about this, which is, I think I’m out projecting my own life into this, I’m about to say. But there’s this one bucket where we don’t ever feel the right to tell people how something is affecting us. Like your behavior or your choices affect me like this and I don’t like it or this scenario that you are in and the way in which our dynamic is working is creating anxiety for me or I don’t want to spend my time like this or whatever. There’s this idea of like being affected in relationship and then there’s the second bucket of are we allowed to want some things? That’s different. That’s like I want to do some things that are fun for me. want to, I want my opinions and my preferences to factor in. I don’t always wanna make choices that you guys all want. Yeah, you know, I’ve got my own deal going on and whether that’s like career or it’s just like preferences things that we love things that we enjoy ways in which we’re gonna spend our time I don’t know. I I wonder if there are two things and they both matter

Amy Hardin: They both matter and we’ve been taught that neither one of them is okay to demand or take and I think also the the issue of self-care and self-comfort I know the difference between those two from Sarah Bessey. And at the time I used it as sort of a reinforcement that self care is necessary and needed in order to continue on. Recently I’ve realized self comfort is fine too. Like it doesn’t always have to have a purpose. It could just be something you like doing and we can take the time to do that.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right.

Amy Hardin: So yes, there’s a lot of different facets to it and we just I guess have absorbed the message that none of it’s okay.

Jen Hatmaker: I know exactly. I had a hard conversation recently with a person in my life whose practice with me is to store up all every single negative thought, experience, opinion, or whatever about to been happening, and to make it into like a huge negativity mountain. And then she brings that and puts every pound of it on me without any break in the fog. Just, I am the repository for her bad feelings about everything in the world and because I felt responsible to be like a safe place or whatever the people say, you know say a good listener, a safe friend, whatever, I Just let that go on for a really long time until I realized when this person’s name pops up in my phone I get I go cold chills, like… no. I don’t want to listen to a voicemail. don’t want to see what the text says. I don’t want to have a phone call. And so I had this conversation where I just said, the, the imbalance here is I can’t do it anymore. I understand that things are hard and things aren’t going the way that you wanted them to, or you’re mad or you’re disappointed or whatever. And I want to be able to have those conversations with you. But if there’s never any break in the deluge, if you don’t also share with me what’s going right, what’s going good, and also there’s no reciprocity here, I cannot do this anymore. And so not, I won’t do it. And it was a very challenging conversation. We’ll see how it shakes out.

Amy Hardin: It’s a really hard boundary. yes, in order to set these healthy boundaries, we have to do so much work on the front end of that. That’s just it. And prioritizing our own mental health, physical health, like time management is not inherently selfish.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s it. That’s the crux. That’s not being mean and it’s not being selfish. It is being healthy. So we’re going to have to flip that switch.

Amy Hardin: And then from a healthy place, we can continue to be so nurturing. Of course. Like, with our friends. Two things can be true at once. Manage our time even better.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right. That does not mean if I’m going to put a boundary into sort of a poisonous scenario that is draining and exhaustive and repetitive, because everybody has a bad season. So I never, we never like fault a relationship that’s had a short spell. All of us go in the gutter where we just zap everybody of energy around us until we get, but when that’s the story, when that’s the through line, it’s not mean or bad to say this is not working for me. And here’s why. Anyways.

Okay, well I say thank you Molly for loud quitting that and obviously we are still we are working on the same exact things in our life.

That brings us to Jamie and here is what Jamie had to say.

Jamie: [missing audio}

Jen Hatmaker:  That makes me laugh. My gosh. It’s like she came from the school of hard knocks staffed by Jana King. Yes. Who passed it on to me. This was me. I feel so, I feel so kindred to Jamie right now.

Amy Hardin: And you had athletes.

Jen Hatmaker: I sure did. They all were in their little things and it is genuinely true that the parent meetings, the boosters, the team moms, the varsity soccer Facebook mom group, it’s all endless. And when I used to look at the level in which some of my lady peers were invested in sophomore volleyball, I’m like, I was born on a completely different planet than this. I mean, we went to every game. I’m not saying I didn’t care about my kids’ lives, but we went to all the things and they had their cleats and they had their bag and they had it all. They had it all. And they had the practice and they had the leagues and they had the coaches. We did all that stuff, but like this what she’s saying right now, can you come to a meeting and we’re gonna talk about how we’re gonna rebuild the program next year? I will not come to the meeting.

Amy Hardin: No, I don’t, that’s not really the parents’ work, is it?

Jen Hatmaker: It’s not mine. I’m actually,

Amy Hardin: I thought I was conflicted on this. I’m not, but my-

Jen Hatmaker: What were you thinking you’re conflicted on?

Amy Hardin: My kids didn’t play team sports. They’re athletic, but they do solo things. But my nieces play lacrosse at a really high level. They won state two years ago. My sister is the-like team mom this year. My brother-in-law is helping to coach. They put so much into it, but I think the issue is when everybody is expected to come to every meeting and then they think that they can give their opinion about everything for the rest of the season. It’s like too many team moms. That’s too much. Our programs need the volunteers. Of course. Sign up to bring the snacks. But don’t disparage the ones who are willing to put in an extra 20 hours a week.

Jen Hatmaker: I see what you’re saying.

Amy Hardin: But also keep your opinions to yourself. I think there’s a fine line. Be supportive. But if you don’t like something, like it’s not okay to go on the parent Facebook page and spend four days complaining about such and such at last weekend’s game.

I think everyone is so emotionally invested in the whole thing instead of just being supportive of their kiddo. Giving their kid what they need

Jen Hatmaker: And the team like, yeah, we’ll do the thing. We’ll do that. I’ll, I’ll do my hours in the concession stand. You know, we’re going to keep the program on the tracks for sure. So to your point, we don’t want to hear like the mega team moms hear this going, Well, shit, who’s going to do it then? Right. Some people are built for this.

What made me laugh that Jamie said, which is the truest thing that’s ever been said is that we started getting messages about how crucial certain leagues, certain teams, certain sports equipment brands, certain summer travel leagues, et cetera, were going to be to the success of our second grade athletes’ future. I mean, this is the only path. you either, they either get in like, you know, club baseball by third grade or they can F off, you know? I mean, I guess they can just play in the backyard like with the neighbor’s and we, a hundred percent, I remember hearing all this, like this is all just so important for their athletic success.

Guess what guys? Y’all’s kids are not going to go play in college. They’re not going to be in the NFL. They are not going to be in the national hockey league. They are not going to play for the New York Yankees. They’re not doing it. Okay. Most of them are not even going to play at their D3 college up the street. They’re just not, it is like, I wish I had the numbers in front of me. I didn’t realize I was going to get feelings about, catch feelings about this, but the percentages of high school and younger athletes that go on to college sports in any capacity on any level is so tiny. And then of those college kids, the ones that go into pro sports is like zero. So everybody relax. Relax, especially with the elementary. Relax.

Amy Hardin: And in Texas, the system is set up, so you really do have to play club sports in order to make your high school team. we chose not to do that when they were young. so mine that did go to public school actually didn’t have an option to do high school sports because they were incoming with zero experience as freshmen and the coaches were like, sorry. Yeah.

Jen Hatmaker: Or a lot of schools have a C team. That’s what it’s there for. It’s for the kids who are like, I started baseball this year as a ninth grader for the first time. Where can I play? And they’re like, see team on the bench. All right. Good. Go knock yourself out, man.

Amy Hardin: If your kid loves sports, great. Yeah. But the pressure we put on everybody, including the kids when they’re seven.

Jen Hatmaker: And the referees and the umpires, when I see a deranged baseball parent of a third grader screaming until their neck veins pop out at the volunteer high school umpire, I could just about die. Calm down. I know everybody calm down. Now we’ve taken a leap into all sports and I see that we have, but the point remains, it is okay to come down a couple of notches on how invested we are, particularly at the high school level. And that’s what she’s talking about. She’s got a 16 year old. We’re not talking about a six year old who needs to drive himself to practice. Like, figure it out. I hope you enjoy your sports program. I’ll do my thing and I’ll cheer for you. And that’s about as far as my involvement’s going and I co-sign for sure.

Let’s do one more. This is from Laura.

Laura: [missing audio]

Jen Hatmaker: I love her. I completely love that. that also reminds me of part of the conversation we had with Lisa Congdon, didn’t start really her art career to almost 40. Right. And even then she built for years before it like took off and caught. And I don’t know. I know we’ve talked about this, but the older we get, the further away old gets. Do you want to mean? Yes. Like, I don’t even know if anything is anymore. I don’t know if anybody’s ever old. They just die.  And we’re at our smartest right now. Like we are at our best. I almost feel like everybody should start a new huge career or adventure or path in their fifties.

Amy Hardin: Or at least consider it. Figure out what you like to do. like she said,

Jen Hatmaker: Even if it’s hard, that’s okay. We’re smart. We can figure things out. It’s worth it. I remember laughing so hard at Jenny. This is our friend and this is a decade ago and she was coming up on 50 a couple years away from it and she, remember her saying, I’m afraid to turn 50 because I feel like I won’t be able to learn anymore. She’s like, I just think my brain is dumb and then it’s going to get dumber and then it’s just going to have, it’s going to be like out of battery. Like I, I, I don’t think I’ll be able to learn anything. And I remember at the time she was very specifically wanting to learn another language. She was wanting to learn Spanish and she was trying to decide if she was going to invest in some of the software because she’s like, I don’t think I can learn it. I’m like, we can learn. We are still capable of learning. Our brains will still learn things.

Amy Hardin: Well, yes. I think we have an upcoming interview with someone specifically about menopause and how sometimes our brains get foggy. Get real foggy. That is true. Hormone related. Yes, but we can get past that.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s right. It’s not permanent. It’s not permanent. It feels like it in the moment, but no, you can start something at 60 or 70. 100%. Or 80. I honestly think you can.  I’ve got my eyes trained toward women ahead of us now. I’m paying attention to them, women that are in the spotlight and that aren’t, but you know, I’m always like, I’ve caught my eye, look on Jane Fonda, like Jane, Siri, how old is Jane Fonda?

Siri: Something went wrong. Please try again.

Jen Hatmaker: Let me try that one more time. Hey Siri. How old is Jane Fonda?

Siri: Sorry, something went wrong.

Jen Hatmaker: Maybe it’s because it’s asking my computer. Well, guess what? I have a computer in my hands. Let me just look.

87. Oh my gosh, no. She’s 87. She’s beautiful. She’s doing new things in her career. She’s smart, funny and interesting. I’m like, oh, there’s no such thing as old. There’s no such thing as too old. There’s no such thing as too old. And I love like based on what Laura said on her message here, that you can do something new, even if you’re like, I am scared of this, or I don’t know, because she delineated between her new work. She’s like, I love the therapy part. The business admin part is kicking my ass. And I get that completely. You know, I’m a creative and I’m a big picture. You and I know this. When I get in the minutia of business, I’m stressed. That’s where my anxiety comes in. You’re the opposite. You like the minutia of businesses that is your comfort zone. And so I like how she said this part is hard, but I’m I’m doing it. And it’s worth it. It’s worth it. I’m learning it. And she said like, I’m smart. I’m capable.

Amy Hardin: That’s it. That’s another thing that we’re not used to being allowed to say. That is so true because that is like not humble for women. Men say it all the time. Just walk around with their chests out, you know It sounds like it’s a complete aside but not a couple weeks ago There was the SNL 50th, so it was like all the really old the skits And so we were talking to our kids about Stuart Smalley. It was funny for a man to be looking in the mirror and doing that but you really don’t see women modeling that behavior. But there’s no reason why we shouldn’t every day.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s so true. And what I notice in the community of women is that we tend to be really good at saying that to each other. Like really good. You can do this. Like you are going to kill this. You are perfect for this. It’s we pretty clearly see each other’s capacity and what we are capable of and we’re really good cheerleaders. The rub is turning that internal, I think to go, you just did it though, Amy. Like you just did. You are not, what are we nine months into saying this thing, this is so outside of my comfort zone, my experience and my industry and I think I can do it. See now you have to practice what you just preached. You’re right. Because I see you doing this with your body like well and well no well you did you did. I think we I think you need two elements I think you need your people that you trust around you cheerleading and saying like hey I see this in you and then you have to be able to accept that and own it and then follow through. S

It’s not exactly the same, but when I got divorced and then had to be overnight in charge of every single line item of life, every single thing, stuff that I had never even put a hand to. I just remember just thinking, I can’t do it. I just cannot learn this much. There’s too much to learn. I’m too behind. I can’t process all this. I can’t figure this all out. But then you just do. You do. You just do. And then one day you’re like, I’m doing it. I learned it. It wasn’t beyond me.

And so we love hearing stories like Laura’s. She’s 56 and she just started her practice and never too late, never too old, never too wrong for the job description, never too simple, never too smart. There’s just, those limits are self-imposed. They are. And it’s up to us to say, I’m not, I don’t believe that story anymore.

Amy Hardin: And it does that we don’t have to have a binary approach to thinking negatively about how we spent our time before this. Like there was a time in a season to focus on our kids when they were young. Like they did need us. course our households needed a CEO. But when we’re at this point where they can take care of themselves and they’re launching, then we can. Like look at the space in front of us.

Jen Hatmaker: That’s so true. Gavin and Danielle were here this weekend. They spent the night and, by the way, if you missed it, they’re giving me a grandson. So I mean, I mean, just, mean, I, I’m in the process of creating their, suite. So they’ll stay here more, but really I just told them, I’m sorry to tell you, you have six months to be who you are. And six months from now, you are the baby’s parents. That’s who you are. And we will be like, when are you bringing us our baby? I just remember when this happened with my mom, when I had Gavin. Then all of a sudden I was Gavin’s mom. Anyway, I digress.

They were here and I’m only four, five weeks into having a genuinely empty house. And they were like, how’s it going? Like, how does it feel?

And I’m like, it felt one way the first week, which was kind of like, do you, no, you won’t know this cause you homeschooled. There’s this feeling the first week of school when all your kids leave your home and they go to their classrooms and you are just on top of the world. And you, you have this new, you’re like, this is who I am now. I’m a person who does all her chores on time. I’m a person who meal plans. I am now a person who’s going to be strangely organized from here on out. It’s just like the euphoria is so intense and you’re just very unrealistic about your actual life. That’s how this first week for me felt as well. And, but I told them like it kind of settled a little and parts of that awesomeness has stuck, but I’m getting to my point here that has to do with this exact message from Laura.

I noticed that when my work is done for the day, let’s just say more or less at five, more or less, I have so much more time and space into my life that I didn’t even really account for. It’s not like, the kids just took up a lot of nighttime space energy, just with their bodies, just their bodies in the home. Cooking dinner, we’re eating, it’s all the conversations they’ve stored up. It’s, can you with this and with that, whatever it was, all of a it’s bedtime. And we didn’t really do anything, it’s just like this family life. Without them in the house, I told the kids, I’m like, I’m just a sconch bored. I’ve done everything, I’ve done all my chores. There’s nothing left to do.

And so, to Laura’s point, and what you just said, our family takes up a lot of energy in a good way. We chose that. We made them. We made a family. But there does come a season of life. Believe it or not, you guys, if you’re not there yet, they move out and you go, is this how many hours have always been in a day?

Amy Hardin: It’s discombobulating. It truly is.

Jen Hatmaker: I am like, maybe I could be an exercise person. I mean, I’m not getting, I’m not going to be crazy, but I’m just like, I need something to do in the night hours. I’m like, what am going to do? I’ve read so many books in the last five weeks, which is great. That’s a good use of my brain space. But anyhow, my point is it is never too late. And guess what? We’re only getting more time and more energy put back into our life equation as our roles are transitioning forward. So what a great time it’s to dream a new dream.

Amy Hardin: We have a guest coming up. I read her book, I won’t say who, but she describes this feeling as on like if you’re on a hike and you’re on a path in the forest with the trees around you and then you come to a meadow just taking the time to pause and look and realizing you don’t have to stay on the path you were on because you’ve got this huge clearing in front of you.

Jen Hatmaker: Oh, that’s good. I haven’t got to that part yet.

Amy Hardin: And you can go your own way.

Jen Hatmaker: I like that. I really love the imagery of it.

Amy Hardin: I do too. That’s going to be a good interview. I cannot wait for that one you guys, you’re not going to believe all that guests we have coming up really just even in the next two weeks that we’re doing all the recordings. I’m like, Oh, no big deal.

Jen Hatmaker: Hey, thanks for leaving us messages, you guys. We love to hear from you, period, but I also actually like hearing your voices. I mean, this podcast is just our voices, ad nauseum. And so it’s nice to hear you talk and thanks for sharing. so listen up. What do you have to tell us? You guys, send us a voicemail. Go over to jenhatmaker.com, under the podcast tab and you’ll see the voicemail button. It really is that simple.

Give us a message and you can either let us know something that you were thinking about after you heard a specific episode or interview. It could be one of the conversations we’ve been having. It can be something you’re learning kind of right here in your stage of life and we are loving them and we’re going to have more episodes like this that are just listener submissions only and I look forward to every single one of them.

Amy Hardin: Yeah, turns out y’all are smart and funny and provide excellent content.

Jen Hatmaker: Yeah, you’re funny and good. It was such a great listening community.

So, OK. Thanks for joining us today and let me just say thank you to awesome anonymous Naomi, Molly, Jamie and Laura for your questions. Delighted to know you. You guys have a great week. Hey, by the way, if you have not already subscribed to the For the Love podcast, today’s the day man. Just wherever you listen to them, search it in the search bar and just hit either follow or add or add the little plus sign and that just automatically subscribes you to the show and it’ll create a little library for you of every single episode. You’ll never miss one. That’s literally how I follow every podcast that I love. Otherwise I’d forget to go find them. So do that if you haven’t already, because we really love to be in your AirPods.

Or also we want to say big love to our YouTube watchers. You know, we video record every single podcast, us and our guest. And I mean, that’s just the way we experience it. We’re always getting to look right at our guests. And so I always feel like I want you to see that too. So you can see their faces and their body language and their beautiful backgrounds. Yeah. You know? So that’s over on my YouTube channel. If you would like to ever watch a podcast that you loved to listen to. All right. That’s it. That it from you?

Amy Hardin: That’s it.

Jen Hatmaker: OK, you guys, see you next week. Bye.

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

The Devil Wears Prada film (2006)

Warning poem by Jenny Joseph

Freedom From Codependency with Melody Beattie

Finding Freedom with Mel Robbins and Two Little Words: Let Them

Atlas of the Heart by Brené Brown

Awaken to Your Next Chapter: Artist and Activist Lisa Congdon on Imagining a More Beautiful Life

Sacred Reimagination: When Faith Evolves with You: Erin Hicks Moon

Jane Fonda

Saturday Night Live 50th Anniversary Special

Stuart Smalley

Jen is going to be a grandma!