Even Winners Fail: Sarah Robb O’Hagan

Narrator:  Hi everybody, my name is Remy. Welcome to the For the Love Podcast, with your host Jen Hatmaker, my mom. She writes books and speaks to crowds. But she mostly loves talking to amazing people every week on this podcast. Thanks for listening! We hope you enjoy the show.

Jen:  Hey, guys. Jen Hatmaker here. Welcome to the For the Love Podcast. Glad you are here.

Glad you are enjoying this series because I totally am too. We are right in the middle of For the Love of Powerhouse Women, which is exactly what it sounds like. I mean, this is just your weekly dose of inspiration, honestly. Just talking to these women and what they’ve learned, what they’ve learned from failure, what they’ve learned from success, what they’re building, what they’re dreaming. I mean, this puts so much gas in my tank. I cannot even tell you.

My next guest is someone who, well, despite failure, which we’re going to talk about, getting fired back-to-back jobs, setbacks, fatigue, she just doesn’t stop. She refuses to sit on the sidelines and not learn from it all and use it for forward momentum. She’s just this force on how to dig deep and keep going.

By anybody’s definition, New Zealander Sarah Robb O’Hagan is just a winner. She is a winning force. She’s a leader, entrepreneur, activist, motivational speaker, author, athlete, movement starter, frankly. To be sure, she has had a glittering career in a few companies you maybe have heard of. Let’s see, Virgin Atlantic, Atari, Nike, Apple. She has served as the president of Gatorade, which she completely turned the entire brand around. We’ll talk about that a little bit. People were praising her obviously as she repositioned this global brand in a super successful way. She even felt complicated around that, which we’ll also unpack.

She’s been the president of Equinox, which is this luxury fitness company. In fact, she was so effective in that role that she landed a top spot on Forbes’ Most Powerful Women in Sports list, so she’s no joke. She has been the CEO of Flywheel Sports, this crazy good indoor cycling company. Now she’s building this incredible brand around her book Extreme You, which I love the tools she is putting out in the world. She lives with her husband and her three kids in New York City.

Obviously when you listen to Sarah’s accomplishments, it’s easy to think that her trajectory just was a straight shot upward. But it really wasn’t. It was twisty and it was turny, and I appreciate her candor to talk about every single place where the road zigged when she thought it was going to zag. We’ll end up talking about her book, Extreme You.

She is also just delightful. You’re going to love this. Well, of course she’s got her beautiful accent. I told you she’s from New Zealand. But also she laughs a lot and her voice is just bright and shiny and light. I just really enjoyed her. At several points during this interview I was thinking, Gosh, I wish she was just in the room with me. I wish she was in my office and we were having this discussion over a glass of rosé, which she said was her favorite summer thing, and sitting on the couch.

Anyway, you’re really, really going to like her. I’m really excited to introduce you to her work if you don’t already know it. This is a good one, you guys. So very happy to welcome to the show today, Sarah Robb O’Hagan.

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Jen: I am absolutely thrilled to have you on the show today, Sarah. Thank you so much for making time for this.

Sarah:Hey, Jen. It’s awesome. Love what you’re doing here.

Jen: No, you’re awesome and I love what you’re doing. You are just out there killing it is what you’re doing. You’re slaying at life. I love everything that you have put your hand to. I am really inspired by you. I cannot wait for my listeners to get to hear you talk a little bit today.

I’ve told them a little bit about who you are and what you do. But I would love to learn a little bit more first about how you charted your path to the very impressive and accomplished Sarah that you are today.

Will you tell us just a little bit about growing in New Zealand? What kind of a kid were you? Were you a “ride my bike everywhere,” sporty type like you are now? Were you a book kid? How were you in childhood? Did you have any idea back then or any signs that this would be your path?

Sarah: Oh my gosh, no, not at all. I would say I love that question, are you a “ride your bike” kid? Definitely. I come from a very, very small town of 300,000 people, so we rode our bike everywhere and played lots of sports, for sure.

But I actually was probably more known as a musical student as a child. I did a lot of music and a lot of sports, and I was very average at all of them. So I don’t think I ever really felt like I was going to thrive anywhere, you know? Funny how little by little those pieces come together and they all add up. But certainly as a child, I didn’t have any of the early signs of success, I wouldn’t have said.

Jen: I was exactly like that. I was the skinny, bike, tree-climbing type of kid. That’s so, so familiar.

I wonder who were your early heroes when you were a kid? Who did you admire? Who did you watch? Who did you love from afar?

Sarah: Yeah. This is funny. I bet you can relate this too. I actually was obsessed with Tina Turner, and that was my thing.

Jen: Sure!

Sarah: I was like, “I want to be Tina Turner. I want to fill stadiums and be a rock star. That looks amazing.” Yeah, no.

People like that who I think were bold women, I suppose, in the world that were really making a big statement in an unexpected way definitely appealed to me. I was always very sporty, so I followed a lot of our local sporting heroes at home in New Zealand.

Jen: Oh yeah. Me too. I’m the oldest of four kids, and we had a sports dad.

Sarah: Oh nice.

Jen: So it was like you either love sports, love watching it, talking about them, playing them, discussing them, and obsessing about them, or you just need to find a new family.

Sarah: Exactly. You don’t get the option not to. I love that.

Jen: That’s exactly right.

Okay. Obviously we can all pretty much remember our first jobs, some combination of both exhilaration and anxiety. It’s hard to erase from our memories. This part I love about your early years. Will you talk a little bit about some of your first jobs. Even back then as you were a young adult, what did you discover that you were liking about work? What did you discover that you did not enjoy at all? At what point did you hit on something within a job and think, Oh this. This is what I like, this is what I’m good at, this is making me come to life?

Sarah: Well, I will tell you a funny story. One of my first, not first jobs, but teenage jobs was I was working in a clothing store called ESPRIT. I think it still exists. I can’t remember, but—

Jen: Oh yeah.

Sarah: When you are a sales assistant in a store like that, it’s incredibly regimented. We used to have to play exactly the music on tapes that they sent us for the ambient sound in the store. We used to have to fold the shirts exactly correctly and blah blah blah. I can remember one weekend when me and two of the other shop assistants, we were super naughty. We’re like, “Enough of this. We’re going to put our own music on.” We’re having this epic dance party in the store when the regional manager comes by to check on us.

Jen: Of course.

Sarah: Needless to say, we were in a lot of trouble. It was funny because I do remember one of my first proper jobs post-university when I started. I was a marketing intern at an airline. The first time I had a project where they allowed me to figure it out for myself, I realized, Ooh. I’m one of these people, I don’t like being put in a box and having to play by exact rules. I like to break out and be creative and have fun.

So when I compare and contrast those two experiences, I think it really was clear that’s, I guess, how I landed on the marketing track because it just was a place where you could be in a sandbox and explore a little bit.

Jen: One thing that I love about you and about your story is how candid you have been about your early experiences. Specifically, you talk really frankly about being fired from a couple of jobs, which for some people can just be a confidence wrecker. It just feels like a game ender. But it really wasn’t for you.

I’m curious how long it took you to get to a place where you were able to objectively assess why you were fired and how to get back in the game and what you learned from that season. Can you talk about all of that a little bit?

Sarah: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, so yes, I have been fired twice actually back-to-back in two jobs in my late-20s, which for anyone in their late-20s, that’s a time when you’re really trying to get your career going. It was pretty devastating, obviously, at the time.

It’s funny because the reason I do talk so openly about it is there’s such a stigma about being fired or people feel like there’s real stigma and you have to cover it up on your resumé. You should be so mortified about it. But in actual fact, as you just said, it’s so much more common than you realize. When you actually realize that you’re part of a club of a ton of people, it actually helps you understand that it’s a normal part of career development.

Sometimes it’s nothing to do with you. If a company is downsizing, you have absolutely nothing to do with it. Other times, like me, I was really just not a good fit, not playing to my best, not being a good employee, and I deserved to get fired. Those are both really good learning experiences because you do have to dig deep and get through them.

But to answer your question, I would say actually the fear of getting fired is a hell of a lot worse than the actual reality, because when it does happen, we actually don’t have much choice than to figure out how to get another job and move forward.

In my case, I would say, particularly the first time when I literally was singled out and fired, it probably took me, I’d say, a good four weeks of licking my wounds before I fully acknowledged my role in what had happened. But once you do that, you have no choice but to start moving forward, and it’s the single best thing that helps you get over it. It’s like getting back on the horse. It’s finding another role and starting to feel like you’re getting momentum again.

Jen: That’s just a great word in general in life. Almost with no exceptions, the fear of a thing can be worse than it actually happening, just the anticipation and the anxiety around it. And then you realize when you lose two jobs back-to-back what you’re made of and what you’re capable of and how to stand back up. And you did it with wild success. I mean, absolute rare air, honestly.

Jen:  One thing that you talk about just with a great deal of capacity is this idea about fear. I wonder in your opinion, how do you think fear threatens our ability to succeed? I wonder if you could share a time when maybe fear showed up in your life and how you confronted it just so you could move forward and conquer it.

Sarah: Yeah. No, it’s funny. I’ve spent a lot of time studying fear and talking about fear, because actually the statistics would say every generation, from the Boomers through Gen X through the Millennials through Gen Z, have become statistically more fearful of failing and more unlikely to take risks because of the fear of failing. And it’s a real problem, because the only way you’re going to really reach your own potential is by swinging hard and taking those risks. Whether you succeed or fail, actually you learn as much in both circumstances.

Jen: Totally.

Sarah: I don’t think that I could have articulated that earlier in my life, but I think when I was facing fears—I remember when I made the decision to leave Nike and move to Gatorade, which was essentially going from being on a really good career trajectory to a very uncertain, this is a business that needed a turnaround. There were so many things that could have gone wrong. It was really scary.

But in the end, I was like . . . I kind of knew what the solid path behind me was, and if you don’t explore and try, you’ll never know. It was kind of like stepping into my own sense of, If not me, then who? Almost like turning it into a bit of a competitive attitude, to really just say, I want to take this because if I don’t, someone else will and I’ll be really jealous.

Jen: Exactly. That’s such a great point. You’re also right that failure has absolutely been one of my best teachers.

Sarah: Is that right?

Jen: If all we ever did was try to avoid it, we really would never reach our full potential. That’s just true. I don’t know if this is because the way the world works right now is such a curated version of itself, what is it people selectively choose to put in public, and for a watching world that makes us paralyzed and unable to take risks. But that’s not been the story behind any successful person—any.

Sarah: Totally. 100%. Yeah.

Jen: Yes. Without exception.

Obviously it’s no secret that we live in a world of instant gratification right now. But in business, usually, typically, with a handful of rare exceptions, we have to play the long game and wait for results, kind of going back to what you just said about going to Gatorade, which you were almost going to start in negative space. I mean, it was going to take a minute to pull everything up by its bootstraps.

So when we’re slogging through a long season, how would advise us to keep ourselves from drowning and second-guessing our decisions? Because there had to have been a moment, again, just to use your example, there had to have been an early moment, maybe at Gatorade, that you thought, Why did I just leave Nike? What in the world have I done? 

Success is never instant. You never turn a ship around on a dime. Both how did you hold steady, and how would you suggest we all hold steady when we’re waiting for something to catch traction?

Sarah: It’s a very great question. I will tell you a funny story for my answer.

When I was leading the turnaround of Gatorade, which most of your listeners, I’m sure, know what Gatorade is. It’s a $5 billion business, and it was in deep decline. My team and I were having to have the tough effort of turning it around. When you turn around a business like that, it was literally the most stressful, hard, day-in-day-out grind that I can possibly imagine with all sorts of eyes watching you, judging you, second-guessing you, all of the above. I can remember having so many moments personally of, What am I doing? Is this ever going to work? Have I made the wrong decision? Should I skip and go somewhere else? All of the above.

I had a wonderful boss, Mossimo was his name, Italian man, who I remember one time in a moment of just sheer exhaustion, going, “I can’t do this any more!” He told me about this great Italian, I guess, fable. It was all about these people crossing the river. He said basically, “When you’re halfway across the river, it’s as hard to get back to the side as it is to get across to the other side. So you may as well just keep going.”

Jen: Whoa, that’s good.

Sarah:  I was like, “You’re right.” It’s such a good metaphor because it’s true. I do think for people, especially the younger generations who we all know are highly, much more likely to skip and jump in roles, particularly because it’s such a good economy right now. The reality is if you don’t stick with something that pushes you into a little adversity, it’s hard to develop the depth of skills that you’re going to need when you’re a leader later in your career. So I do think giving yourself that talk in the mirror of, “It’s better for me to stick with it,” is an important step to take.

Jen: I love that story. I’m not going to forget that.

A lot of us when we think about the corporate world, the world that you are in and have been in for a long time, we have an idea that it’s this very cut-throat, everyone for themselves, super competitive environment, and especially for women. I mean, it’s no secret that there are not enough women at high levels of leadership really across the board. That is a place that is just still male-dominated more than it isn’t. Even especially among women at high levels like you, women CEOs and high-level women in leadership, how do you remember, or how have you learned that someone else’s success is not a threat to your own?

I’m curious what you have discovered it takes as a leader to foster a true, supportive, team-building attitude in the workplace without feeling insecure or inferior or always in competition with one another.

Sarah: That’s a very interesting question because it’s funny. I don’t know if I’ve just been lucky with the women that I have worked with, because you hear a lot of these stories of really difficult relationships between women, and perhaps the generation even before mine where it was there was one seat at the table and women would fight each other to get to it.

It’s certainly not been my experience. I don’t know if it’s because I have predominantly been in the sports and fitness industry, where a lot of us grew up playing sports and therefore having that just deep understanding of the need to pass the ball and lots of people on the team will do better than one individual trying to be heroic.

But I think in the end, it’s one of the things I’ve enjoyed watching in the last three to five years, particularly as the women’s movement in corporate America is really exploding, is that women have really realized that we simply are not going to reach our potential and close the leadership gap if we don’t really, really help pull each other up.

Jen: That’s right.

Sarah: I’ve noticed a marked change in the way . . . To give a simple example, obviously even at my level, I have friends who, when a high-level recruiter calls with a big job opportunity, we all share it with each other.

Jen: It’s great.

Sarah: We’re equally qualified. Because in the end, it actually doesn’t matter who gets the job, but we need one of us to get it. It can’t be not a woman.

Jen: That’s so good. Yes, exactly! I absolutely believe that. I believe that in my industry as well that a rising tide lifts every boat in the harbor and that is really, really true. There is enough. There really is enough to go around. There’s no scarcity of business or positions or leadership. So I love the idea of whichever one of us gets it, just let it be one of us. That is fabulous.

Sarah: 100%. Let’s make it happen. You are right. Not only there’s a lot to go around, but there’s the pipeline of us. There’s just not nearly enough to fill all these roles. So we’ve just got to get as many of us moving fast through as we can.

Jen: That’s great.

Jen:   Your book, Extreme You, has been out in the world for a couple of years. The book is amazing. It’s an amazing kick in the pants. Can you tell my listeners essentially what the book is about and then why you wrote it?

Sarah: Yeah. I’ll start with why I wrote it. It opens with the story of why I wrote it. After I had successfully come off leading the turnaround of Gatorade, which not surprisingly there was tons of media and all these great stories. I was very honored to receive a few awards here and there. I suddenly noticed everywhere I was written about in the press, it would just say that I was this total success story. I just felt very, very uncomfortable because in my mind’s eye, my entire life had been littered with failures and embarrassments and screw-ups. I was like, Gosh, if that’s the story that we’re telling young people, how on earth are they supposed to recognize that they can actually take risks and fail on the way to reaching their potential?

So it sort of led me through this long process of exploration of understanding why had our culture shifted to do that, and it really has happened. It’s very connected to what you just mentioned of the perfect Instagram culture and the perfect LinkedIn culture.

So it led me to want to write a book about . . . In the book, I interviewed 25 incredibly successful people from very, very different walks of life, very different industries.

What I wanted to do was hear their stories and put it into a framework that anybody could apply to themselves. Not surprisingly, these are people that we all look up to that you hear these wonderful stories of not knowing which direction they were going, failing and rebounding, and essentially I think the book ended up it was a delightful experience to hear some of these wonderful stories from these people. But it made me realize that, gosh, everybody has so much potential in them if we would just give young people the opportunity to make a few mistakes along the way and recognize that’s part of growing up.

Jen: I appreciate you saying that so much. I also care deeply about the next generation and mentoring them in healthy, reasonable, and wonderful ways. I love that you have a heart for them as well. You could have easily said, “I learned the hard way and so should you.” You could have said that. What is it in you? Why is it important to you to reach back and help this next generation reach their fullest potential? Why does that matter to you?

Sarah: Why does that matter to me? I would say first of all, selfishly, I get incredibly energized by seeing other people reach their potential. It’s always been my greatest joy in business actually is the leadership part and seeing someone who didn’t even know that they were capable of getting to the certain level get there. It just really, really fires me up. So that is something that I just love doing. But I think secondly, the longer I have been on this journey, the more concerned I have become about just the incredible lack of diversity at the top of the corporate world, at the top of government everywhere.

You know what? If we don’t make an effort to really bring forward people of all different backgrounds and diverse perspectives, we’re never going to change what it looks like at the top. I very passionately care about it and I was like, What can I do to do my little bit to try and help, really?

Jen: You’re singing my song. I couldn’t agree with you more. I was so encouraged and excited. Just for example, in the midterms here recently to see . . . well, in my lifetime, I’ve never seen such diversity of candidates who are running and being elected to their offices and across race and ethnicity and, of course, obviously gender and sexual orientation. I just thought, We’re on our way. If we are able to both elect, hire, promote a greater diversity of people, really we all win. We all win. I mean, when we only have one basic type of voice and leadership at the top, then we’re operating at 30% capacity, at best.

It’s exciting. It’s exciting to think about the future and what can happen if everybody catches this fever and even just affects the little world they’re in. I mean, who are you hiring? Who are you promoting? Who are you working with? Who are you collaborating with? It starts small, but really has huge potential to ripple out and change the way that we value people and respect them and elect them.

Sorry. I took a tangent. You made me take a tangent. I just got really excited about what you said. Sorry. If you hit my right button, there it goes.

Your title’s Extreme You, which I like because it just gets me right between the eyes. I’m kind of an extreme personality. I love the imagery that you conjure when you use that title.

Obviously nobody can be in beast mode all the time. Occasionally we do step back, step down, check in with ourselves, have a self-assessment. Are we doing okay? I’m curious in your life because you have a high-octane life, high responsibility, high risk, high capacity, high impact. You’ve got your foot on the gas in some really big rooms. So what are some of your practices that keep you grounded, that keep your heart open, that keep you gentle with yourself and with others?

Sarah: That’s a great question. I would say that I learned the hard way throughout my life what happens when you don’t put yourself first and really focus on self-care. Very specifically, actually, when I had my third child, when Gabby was just born, which was smack in the middle of when I was leading the Gatorade turnaround, I stopped working out and I just didn’t have time to get to anything. I had three young children at home, and I had the most stressful job on the planet and fell into a deep depression and a lot of things went wrong. I just learned the really hard way that you have to take the time for yourself because what is that saying? Put your oxygen mask on first before you try and help everyone else.

As a result, now I’m very disciplined about taking the time for the things that fill my cup and that could be, obviously, a lot with my family is a huge piece. But it’s friends. It’s like I make a lot of effort to spend time with people I just love and care for that I know will really energize me. Often friends who are outside of the scope of what you do day-to-day can bring such wonderful perspective. Like, when you’re really stressing over a business issue or a relationship and it just feels like your whole world is taken up with this issue, then you can hang out with someone who has a completely different occupation and realize that your worries are so not that important.

Jen: Totally. I’m with you. The people in my life are that’s my anchor at all times, in all seasons. I can usually chart how I am doing emotionally with how connected or disconnected I am with my closest people. Those arc together for better or for worse. I think connectedness is the antidote to what actually ails most of us. So I agree with you completely.

Can you talk a little bit about what you’re doing now, what your work looks like now, what you’re excited about, what you’re putting out in the world, what you’re creating?

Sarah: Yeah. Well, I actually stepped down from my last role at the end of last year and decided I want to take some time this year because, obviously, you’ve talked about my book and I’ve now turned it into experiences and programs because I was like, How do I take a book and actually help people really apply the material for themselves? It’s been a lot of fun actually doing workshops and corporate training programs.

And then we actually just kicked off a really fun one this week, which is a six-week challenge that includes nutrition, fitness, and personal coaching around—
Jen: I saw that.

Sarah: Yeah! It’s a lot of fun, actually. I’m sort of experimenting with how does one’s physical strength and empowerment really drive one’s mental strength and empowerment. So I’m learning and trying to get more people into the tribe of finding their best self, really.

Jen: That’s so great. Who’s joining that? Who are you finding is interested in building this kind of community? Is it all kinds of people?

Sarah: Yeah. It’s really interesting. I mean, the first thing I’ll say, which actually frustrates me, is it’s predominantly women. When I say “frustrates me,” obviously, I love helping women, but one of the things that I find frustrating as a female leader is that for some reason the world thinks it’s perfectly normal for women to take leadership classes from men, but men don’t seem to think it’s the right thing to follow a woman. It’s like, “You might learn something.”

Jen: That’s right.

Sarah: But in actual fact, in this case, we have got some amazing men in the program. It’s been a very wide range from . . . I have one guy whose goal in life is to climb Everest through to a wonderful woman who is trying to get back into exercise for the one time in many, many, many years, and everything in between. That’s actually what’s been really special about it is that we all have such different lifestyles and goals, yet you can really help one another along when you’re as a community trying to achieve them together.

Jen: That’s fabulous.

If people are interested in joining the summer challenge or seeing more about the resources that you’re building right now for implementation, where would they go?

Sarah: Extremeyou.com is everything is there. Obviously you can follow me on all the expected social platforms. So yeah, please come and check it out because we’re having a lot of fun. We just kicked off the summer challenge, but we are definitely doing one in the fall. You can do it from wherever you are in the world, which is really cool. Definitely, we want to have more of your listeners get involved.

Jen: Oh yeah. We’ll absolutely link it over on the transcript, everybody. You can find everything Sarah-related in one-stop shop.

Jen: Okay, Sarah. Quick wrap up. We are in the middle of a series called Powerhouse Women, which is obviously where you fit perfectly. We’re asking all the women in this series these questions, just kind of top of your head. Here’s the first one. What is something that a woman that you admire has taught you that you’ve never forgotten?

Sarah: I would say my mother. When she was actually about my age, so close to 50, having not had any tertiary education, she literally went back to college and started over, and got herself actually a master’s and then went on to have a wonderful career. I think she taught me that you are never too old to get started.

Jen: That gave me goosebumps. That’s amazing. Gosh, I love that. Okay, how about this? What is your greatest hope for the generation of women coming behind us?

Sarah: Gosh. My greatest hope is that they all get in there, reach their potential, get into leadership roles, and change the things that matter in the corporate world and in government in the Western world because I truly, truly believe that it is going to take a lot of women at the highest levels to fix the environment, to fix social issues. I really want to get them there.

Jen: Yeah. Same, same, same. I cannot agree more. Oh my goodness.

Here is our last question. We actually ask every guest in every series this question. It’s one that we love from an author. It can be serious. Your answer can be small. It can be puppies. It can be ponies, whatever you want. Here’s the question. What is saving your life right now?

Sarah: What is saving my life right now?

Jen: We’ve had everything from my children to pickles.

Sarah: I was going to say honestly summer parties with my friends and a good summer rosé.

Jen: Oh yes! That’s my favorite summer drink, absolutely. That’s a good answer. I love it so much.

I am so happy to have met you, Sarah.

Sarah: Likewise.

Jen: I am so inspired by your work. I love your story. I find you this amazing mix of transparent and really inspiring, which sometimes those don’t marry well. Sometimes you get one or the other. But thank you for leading with honesty and humility, but also with enthusiasm and joy. That is incredibly effective. It’s just exciting to watch you go.

Thanks for sharing your work with my listening community. I can’t wait for them to know you more and to follow you. I think you’re just fabulous. Thanks for being on.
Sarah: I really appreciate it. It’s been a blast. Thank you for what you are doing, Jen. It’s such important work to help people see that they can be more than they may even believe. So keep doing more is all I have to say.

Jen: Exactly. Hear, hear. Thanks, Sarah.

Sarah: Okay. See you.

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Jen: Okay. I just completely enjoyed that conversation. I felt her energy and zest for life at every point during that interview. I am really glad to introduce you to her and her really outstanding work in the world.

As always, everything we talked about—Sarah’s socials, her book, her resources—we will have linked over on the transcript page at jenhatmaker.com under Podcast, which of course, Amanda also will have provided for you the entire written transcript, bonus pictures, bonus content, all of that. That’s your one-stop shop for any podcast that you want more information on, that you want to do a deep dive on, that you would like to cut and paste some parts from or just reread. I definitely hope you’re using that resource.

Okay, guys. Thanks for listening. Thanks for subscribing, by the way. Keep subscribing. That’s great for podcasts and it’s great for you. You don’t have to remember this. All you have to do is take five seconds to subscribe and our little show will just pop up on your phone every week. It’s just that simple for you.

As always, we love to bring you good content, good guests, great series. This is just too much fun. It’s too much fun. It just doesn’t feel like a real job. Thanks for being great listeners and being loyal and sharing your favorite podcasts. That just means so much to us. We’re always listening to you and always thankful for your feedback. Thanks for giving it, you guys.

Much more to come in this outstanding series on Powerhouse Women. I mean, it could just go on forever, just forever. We are surrounded by such amazing talent right now. It’s just a good time to be alive.

So thanks for joining us and I’ll see you next week!

Narrator: That’s it for today’s show. Hope you enjoyed this chat. Be sure to subscribe to my mom’s podcast and give it a “thumbs up” rating if you like it. From the whole Hatmaker family, hope you have a great week and see you next time!