Midlife Renaissance: Building Your Belonging Circle with Dr. Thema Bryant

Jen: Everybody. Welcome to the show. Welcome to the For the Love podcast. 

Amy: Welcome. Thank you for joining us. 

Jen: If any of you are still following along on “Amy lives in a barn” saga you still live in a barn and she was reminding me that was what was, it was gonna be two weeks. We’re on six.

How’s it going in the barn or is morale breaking down? 

Amy: Morale broke down last week. Yeah. But it’s better now. Okay. Our neighbors are leaving town today and said we could go hang out in their house, 

Jen: Oh, that’s fantastic. The children, can you stay there? 

Amy: Oh, I can, but I’ll probably stay in the barn and the children will go next door.

Jen: Oh my God. That solves everything. How long can they be outta town? Can they stay gone? 

Amy: Five days. 

Jen: Oh, that’s so great. Yeah. And hey. Fun, fun question. Is your house ever gonna get done? That’s just a question I have. 

Amy: It will, and this is our contractor’s amazing. But I added things on and he keeps saying, now’s the time.

Jen: So give us like the quick rundown. This is what you’re gonna walk into that’s new or redone or whatevs. 

Amy: I was just getting new floors. 

Jen: Okay. That’s, that was the original. 

Amy: And then he convinced us to scrape our popcorn because, I know. 

Jen: No, big yes!

Amy: I know. We scrapped every other project. And then found out there was asbestos.

Jen: Oh, that’s right. 

Amy: Everywhere. Like floor, ceiling, junction boxes. So that all got cleaned out and then I was like you might as well paint the kitchen cabinets because my DIY job from two and a half years ago, while pretty in the beginning, did not hold up. 

Jen: It’s all chipped?

Amy: Yes. And so that’s getting done.

And new bathroom sinks. 

Jen: You absolutely, if you give a mouse a cookie, you are home. 

Amy: So I didn’t mean to, but we’re glad we’re doing it and it will be worth it for sure. And then we won’t ever do anything else again, ever. 

Jen: This is gonna see you through the next 25 years if I know you 

Amy: And it’s being documented on his YouTube channel little shorts like, 

Jen: Oh my gosh. Send that to me. 

Amy: Can this house be saved? 

Jen: These people have lived hard in this home, 

Amy: A hip hop soundtrack. 

Jen: Oh my gosh. 

Amy: I know. He’s 10 years younger than us, so he has a different playlist. 

Jen: Fine.

That’s when I usually can find the age gap. Like when we’re with people who are 10 or 15 years younger than us, tons of it. You could just be seamless. I’m your age Uhhuh. We’re the same age, obviously, by the way we’re talking, and then they say something about music. Or the shows that they loved. And it’s like the shows that my kids loved, and I’m like, oh, there’s the gap. There’s where we fall, like right in the cavern.

Amy: I even notice it with the two of us, and we’re only four years apart. 

Jen: You do?

Amy: Seventies stuff, like you tend to refer to eighties. 

Jen: That is true because that’s the difference between being in middle school and college.

Amy: Yeah. 

Jen: So you’re skewing differently in those four years. I hear what you’re saying. Okay. I’m, I can’t wait to see your house. First of all, what color are you painting your kitchen cabinets?

Amy: Same. Okay. Navy, blue and white. And then all my interior doors are navy blue. Oh God, that is bedrooms is so pretty navy blue. I’m just creating a cave. 

Jen: I love it. You see what I’ve got in my house going on. Yeah. I’ve got whole wall and ceilings, painted obnoxious colors. Oh, this is very exciting. I wish you well in the barn. 

Let’s, we’ve got a really like top drawer credentialed guest today, you guys, super so smart. I was just telling Amy before, I’m like, this is a really smart person. And so I’m so excited to bring that conversation to you. But let, before we bring her on, we’re in a little series that’s not normally the way we structure the podcast, but we are doing a little series right now called Midlife Renaissance.

And. I want to be a part of the voices that are shifting a narrative from the old one, which is that midlife is a crisis. Aging is a crisis, aging is a problem to be solved. To just I like a different story. I’d like us to begin imagining that midlife is a renaissance and this is a season. Is it not? That everybody around our age starts going, listen I don’t care what y’all think of me anymore. I’m not trying to please everybody anymore. I’m not bending over backwards to make everybody like happy and comfortable anymore. And , I don’t mean that in a mean way. It’s not like we’ve all gotten mean.

Although there’s maybe a portion of that in there, a bit of rage that’s been like caged. But it’s more just oh no, I’m just. I’ve earned the right to live in my own body. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Jen: And to live in my own space and to be exactly who I am and for me to handle my side of the street. And guess what? You get to handle yours. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Jen: I handled other people’s sides of the street for a very long time. 

Amy: Also, it’s exhausting. 

Jen: Exhausting, 

Amy: And at this point, our time is freeing up a little more. Yeah. And we’re realizing the things that we love and that we wanna spend time doing. Yes. And we just don’t, why run ourselves into the ground, making sure we look nice at the grocery store, if we actually want to like, learn how to paint or whatever. 

Jen: All of that is true and it’s beginning to make sense to me that it has always been voices ahead of us that are a little bit older than us telling us things like Mary Oliver, This is your one wild and precious life.

 That is dawning on me that we don’t get any of the years back that we overworked or did everybody else’s jobs for them so they could have a more comfortable life or spent our relationships tangled up in codependency or any of it. We just don’t get any of it back. 

This is the one, this is the life we have. And so that is becoming clear to me too. I like being older. 

Amy: Yeah. And not that I don’t really think all of that was necessarily a waste, because I’ve learned some really hard lessons 

Jen: A hundred percent. 

Amy: Through that behavior. And obviously I gave up on exterior goals. Like I stopped caring about what my clothes looked like a long time ago. 

Jen: That’s interesting. 

Amy: Just because when I was pregnant so many times and all those little kids, I just became comfortable with my outsides matching my insides. Like I actually was drowning. Yeah. So it was okay if I looked like that in my one velour sweatsuit.

Jen: What you’re saying, 

Amy: For five years.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. You were in the weeds. 

Amy: But I’ve learned some good lessons. 

Jen: Me too. 

Amy: From that and now, I can see that all that free time I created by not worrying about how I looked, I still spent way too much of it trying to control everything around me. 

But now I’m letting go of that too.

Jen: Yeah. Yes, I’m working on that. I’m working on letting go of that. And some of it is just a absolute advantage to midlife is our kids are growing up. So to some degree we are just not working as hard on parenting like we used to. And they move out, and they get jobs and they handle their own shit.

And that alone, it just pushes us into a new zone. But here’s that was a long lead in to tell you about a segment that we are about to unleash. And it is called Zero Dams to Give.

This is the midlife edition of Zero Dams to Give. And so let’s take aim at a handful of things that we no longer have dams to give about, maybe once upon a time we did. But we’re gonna even zero in a little tighter than that because today’s episode focuses heavily on adult friendships at midlife.

So let’s talk about giving zero dams. I’ve got several to pick from. How about socializing out of obligation? I’m giving you an underhanded pitch because I already, ’cause I know you. Here’s a softball. Amy, how about socializing out of obligation? 

Amy: I think this has come up one or two times already on this podcast.

No? No. Yeah. Why? Why? Although an extrovert would probably answer very differently. That’s a hundred percent true. Extroverts. This is how they recharge their batteries. So that’s fine. Introverts, no, you don’t have to do it anymore. I know you don’t. 

Jen: I know. I, it’s so delightful to discover that, just because we are allowed to say, thank you so much for the invite. I won’t be able to make it. We’re just allowed to. And the reason is, pick a thing. We don’t understand what the parking’s gonna be like. Yeah. Or I don’t know everybody that’s gonna be there. 

My assistant texted me yesterday, I have an event coming up and she was like, you have a choice of two things that the event planner is asking. Because I’m flying in the day before. ’cause it’s a morning event. And she said, you can either go the night before to like the, like a cocktail mix and mingle, if you will, with all the people that are coming. Or you can just have dinner, just you and the event planner.

And I was like the way that I’m not going to the mix and angle is so high. My throat got tight, my throat got tight of just like small talk with strangers. 

Amy: Ugh. 

Jen: I’m like, please give me the one-on-one where I can ask her 100 million questions, you know how I do. And find out about her childhood and who her best friend was in college. That’s my energy for sure. 

Amy: Also though you have taught me, you don’t have to give a reason why you’re not coming. You can just say thank you so much for the invitation. I won’t be able to come. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Amy: Which that still makes me…

Jen: Does it give you a squeezy? 

Amy: Yeah. Uhhuh sick, but that really is okay.

Jen: It is. And this is how I always reverse it. When that, I’m a people pleaser too, so you’re singing my song in terms of not loving to disappoint people, but when I reverse it and think, okay, what if somebody said to me, Hey Jen, thank you like so much for the invite. I won’t be able to come.

What am I gonna have a crisis over that? Absolutely not. I’ll be like, okay, maybe next time. That would not bother me at all. And so anytime I spin it and go, what if I was on the other end of this, what I like to call polite decline, I’d be fine. I respect other people’s boundaries. I respect it when somebody goes, I, and again, they don’t have to give an excuse and we don’t either.

But if somebody’s, I’ve just been running ragged. I’m gonna stay in under a blanket tonight with hot tea. I’m like, can I come? Can I be there? Also quietly sitting next to you under your blanket with you. That doesn’t bother me. In fact, when I observe somebody making a polite but clear boundary, I’m impressed.

Amy: Yes. And I’m so appreciative when they acknowledge next time, because it reminds me, like the neurotic parts of me. Like it’s, this isn’t gonna make them hate me. I’m never gonna get invited to anything again. 

Jen: Totally. Like we don’t have to catastrophize 

Amy: When someone says I understand. Next time. Great. 

Listen, I have been a member of a book club. Yeah. Our friend Laura, I have been in her book club I think for two years. I attended once. 

Jen: I didn’t know this. Oh boy. 

Amy: But I said, please keep me in the book club. In the book club. Okay. On the thread I will build in time to do this at some point. It makes me so happy to get that message every month saying, here’s the new book. 

Jen: Great. And they’re not upset with you? They’re not putting you in literary jail. 

Amy: I’m sure most of them don’t know I’m a member of the book club. 

Jen: They’re like, who’s Amy? Which is this number on the group thread?

But I have a question about this . What’s the book for this month? Do you know? What about next month? I’d like to nudge you back into the book club physical space. 

Amy: Oh, I don’t know what the book is because I didn’t get it ’cause I’m not reading the books. But she did say it was really funny.

Jen: Okay. Look, I’m just, again, I’m gonna respect your boundaries ’cause that’s literally the conversation we’re having. But you like reading. 

Amy: I do. 

Jen: You like women? 

Amy: I do. 

Jen: You like a little small, cute gathering like that. 

Amy: I do. 

Jen: So I’m just saying if you enjoy the text thread, then how much more might you actually enjoy the book club?

Amy: It’s not because I don’t think I won’t enjoy it. I got it. It’s just, and also now we have been talking to and interviewing so many authors. 

Jen: That’s so true. 

Amy: It’s been amazing. But I’ve been reading more than I have since probably high school. 

Jen: That is so true because we’re preparing for all of our interviews 

Amy: By reading every book. 

Jen: I know you’re a really good preparer. That is true. Your new job is a book club. This podcast is essentially a book club. Almost all of our guests are authors in one way or another. Okay, that’s an exaggeration. But we do talk to a lot of authors. 

Amy: Which I love.

Jen: Isn’t it fun? Doesn’t it spoil you? You’re like, God, what am I just gonna read this book and never interview the author Pass? I don’t get an hour with the author. I’m not gonna read it

Anyways, I I like all this so much and I like adult friendships. More or less, I find them just sturdier and calmer. Do you know what I mean? Just, there’s just not so much going on and I don’t know it.

Something about just being older. We’re better at making boundaries. We’re better at accepting boundaries. We’re better at being like, I don’t know, it’s we’re not gripping everything quite as tightly as we used to everything, including friendships. I think I enjoy the energy of old friends.

Also, we’re not in the building years. The reason that me and you are friends is because we were desperate young mothers. Grabbing onto another grown adult for dear life in the deep end. 

Amy: Yes. But we are really lucky. Yeah. In that way. I know there are a lot of women in this Renaissance…

Jen: who they’re lonely. 

Amy: Are lonely. Yeah. And trying to start over because something catastrophic has happened. And so they don’t have those old, sturdy friendships. 

Jen: It’s true. You and I have lived in the same place for so long. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Jen: You forever almost, when did you move to this town?

Amy: ’97. 

Jen: Yeah. And I was here three years later. 2000. 

So even just location, like that longevity in one spot is not necessarily a super common story. 

There’s a lot of upheaval in midlife and geography is one of ’em sometimes. And so we’re gonna talk about all that. But we’re just about to onboard our guests for the day.

But first of all, listener heads up because you may find yourself featured on this here podcast. And here’s why. 

We wanna hear about your Zero Damns to Give. Okay. What are you saying no to and not feeling guilty about anymore? Or what are you employing where you’re like, this is just a healthy space for me? This is a thing I’m no longer gonna give a damn about. Pick a thing. Wardrobe freedom, body freedom, social media freedom people- pleasing freedom. Just pick, I don’t know, I’m not putting words in your mouth. You’ve got something. So here’s what I, we would like for you to do. If you go to jen hatmaker.com/podcast, on that page, look for the send voicemail button.

This could not be easier, okay? All you do is click that button and leave us a message and we’re gonna play some of those on the show. We’re gonna play your thoughts on Zero Damns to Give, and that’s it. It’s just that simple. Jenhatmaker.com/podcast and click the send voicemail button. We can’t wait to hear what you have to say and we are a hundred percent gonna include some of your voice messages on the show.

Okay. Having said that, we are transitioning into a, this is like top of the ladder type of guest with just incredible credentials, expertise, knowledge, experience around this very conversation. Today we have on Dr. Thema Bryant. Dr. Thema is, she is a renowned psychologist. She is an author, she is a professor, she’s an ordained minister.

Dr. Thema is dedicated to helping to create healthy relationships. To help heal trauma and overcome stress and oppression. She holds a doctorate in clinical psychology from Duke, and then she did her postdoctoral training at Harvard Medical Center’s Victims of Violence program. She’s just so interesting a person.

Dr. Thema is a tenured professor at Pepperdine and she directs the Culture and Trauma Research laboratory, and she is obviously mentoring future generations of healers and leaders. No big deal, but she was the president of the American Psychological Association in 2023. She’s the host of the Homecoming Podcast, which is a mental health podcast, helping people reconnect with their authentic selves.

She is ordained elder in the African Methodist Episcopal Church and she is the author of a recently released book called Matters of the Heart. So with a list like that, gosh, we’re lucky to have her to come into our little space, into your little earbuds and teach us, and lead us and train us in matters of the heart.

So please help us welcome Dr. Thema Bryant.

Dr. Thema, welcome to the For the Love Podcast. We are just tickled to meet you. 

Thema: Oh, thank you so much. I’m excited for today and glad to meet you both. 

Jen: Same. You’re so interesting and you work with such interesting groups of people in such interesting spaces and we’re so looking forward to hearing from you today because we’re in a series that we’re calling Midlife Renaissance.

Is it okay for me to ask you how old you are? 

Thema: 51. 

Jen: Oh, okay. Yeah, we’re all the same age. I’m 50. 

Thema: Oh, wonderful. 

Jen: Yeah. Amy’s 53. So we’re all right there in the same spot, which is perfect. We were just doing a segment how called Zero Damns to Give because we are at this age where we are discovering we have less damns to give about certain things.

Yeah. And we’d like to kick that over to you and hear from you. Is there something that you have like more courage to say no to? No, thank you. Won’t be doing that. Won’t be joining that today than maybe you did when you were younger. 

Thema: Absolutely. Yeah. So the wake up call for me, I’m a psychologist, and the wake up call for me was during the pandemic.

For the first time in my career, I had to put a sign on my website saying I was not taking any more clients. 

Jen: Oh, yeah. 

Thema: And that was very hard for me. I grew up as a pastor’s daughter. And in a kind of church environment, the message is when anybody asks you to do something, the answer should be Yes.

Jen: Totally. 

Amy: Yep. 

Jen: Especially for women. 

Thema: Yes. 

Jen: Uhhuh, we grew up in the same environment.

Thema: And also I’ll say within my community, the African American community, there can be such a stigma to seeking help, so when someone actually reaches out for help, not wanting to tell them no.

But in the midst of the pandemic, both of my kids were doing school from home because everything was shut down. And so it was like all day long in my room working with clients, kids downstairs, trying to see are they on the screen? Are they doing? And it just was too much.

And I, and here was the gift of it. When I said I wasn’t taking any more clients, I teach at Pepperdine University, I started referring people to my former students who had two, three clients. 

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. 

Thema: And so it was like a win-win. Oh. I’m not the only person That’s good. I’m not holding the world in my hands but you can convince yourself you are. As if if I say no, the world will crumble. And it’s no. If I say no, somebody else can do it. 

Jen: That’s right. 

Thema: And so that has been a part of my liberation. 

Jen: Oh gosh. That feels so relatable. It’s so amazing and hilarious to discover at this age that we aren’t necessarily holding all the planets up in space. 

Thema: That’s right. 

Jen: There are other hands. 

Thema: Yes.. And what happens when we step back? Some people step forward. And also, when we step back. Some things do fall apart and that’s okay. 

Jen: That’s right. 

Thema: That means it’s not supposed to be done in this seasons. It’ll take a break. And eventually someone else will step up or you’ll rest and restore and pick it back up. 

Jen: I love this. Yeah. I already love this interview.

Your body of work is broad and you work across such a variety of mental health spaces, trauma, relationships, like self care and love and all of it. And. What I wish we had is 20 hours to ask you everything we wanna ask you. 

We’re zoning in today on relationships and maybe even specifically friendships, but relationships as adults, which is different than when we’re building them in college or we were just talking about the genesis of our friendship was when we were in the little baby years and we were just looking for another adult in the deep end. Who can help us? Who can I grab onto like in these little kid years? 

And so to that end, and we know it ’cause we’re in it, midlife can feel lonely and isolating to a lot of women. And I’d like to hear you talk about that a little bit. There is no, of course, just one story, but there are a handful of through lines.

What would you say are some of the like primary reasons that loneliness and isolation can jump on our backs right about now at this stage in life? 

Thema: Yes. Yeah. It’s so important because the messages we get of what our priorities should be, are family and/or work. And so we, growing up as good girls, follow directions. So it’s like I’m supposed to be like Mom of the Year. I’m supposed to do all of that. And then, in terms of work, like I am steadily climbing. I’m not there yet. I’m not there yet. And so then you get to this season of, I have to the extent that worked out for you, invested in family, invested in work, and the phrase that I write in my prior book, Homecoming, is Can you come to the place where you admit, I miss me? I miss myself. And myself is not my labor. Myself is not my roles. Myself is a living soul and one of the things that feeds my soul are my friendships. But those got neglected because I was told that to be a good worker or a good wife or a good mom, I had to deprioritize the things that nourished me.

Jen: Oh, that’s true. 

Amy: It is true. 

Jen: Those are my two like leading pillars for so many years. And sometimes even just practically, they crowd out some of that self nurture, but I, miss me, is such a powerful sentence. 

Amy: How does our internal narrative about belonging and our internal narrative about ourselves affect our ability to cultivate relationships in this season?

Thema: Yes. So we learn quickly that you get rewarded for showing up in a certain way and you get judged or penalized for showing up in another way. And and that includes in the realm of friendship. To be the friend that everybody wants. I gotta be shiny, I have to be energetic, I have to have the answers. I have to. I have to. And so then it becomes performance instead of friendship. 

And so I have to release the story that says these things are required for me to be chosen and loved as a friend. And instead say that for me to be a friend, I have to be real. 

For me to be a friend, I have to be honest.

For me to be a friend, I have to be able to become undone in your presence. 

Amy: It’s hard work. It is. It’s really hard work. 

Jen: That sort of sense of exposure I think keeps a lot of us doing the shiny dance. Yes. And to your point, the shiny dance is rewarded. I mean it works. 

Thema: Yes. Uhhuh. And what happens is to play that out when you’re going through a difficult time, you have to isolate. So then I disappear because no one can see me broken. 

Jen: Totally. This is one of my like, lifelong pieces of work which is to be true and real and in my body and in my actual life with all the people around me. It’s I was born to a shiny dad and I am a shiny person, and the work to drop it down into real life. I’m 50. I’m still working on it. 

Thema: Yeah. Yeah. And thank you for naming it as labor when it’s unfamiliar. Because for people who live like that, they who had the safety and permission to live like that, they don’t necessarily see it as labor. They’re just like, I’m just gonna be me. I’m just gonna be real.

But when that has not been your journey, it is more work to pause and unfold. To pause and to breathe, to pause and come off script. 

Amy: So when you’ve gone through one of these major life changes, career, divorce, empty nesting, and you finally realize, I miss myself, before you can start cultivating these outside relationships, what is that first step that we can take? Like after you finally realize and acknowledge, I miss me. What’s the next step after that?

Thema: Yeah. Beautiful. So after I tell myself the truth, because coming home to myself and recreating my life, reclaiming my life first starts with the truth telling.

And so what is it that I miss? Who was I before? What aspects of that are reclaimable? What do I have to release? What do I have to grieve and what can I reclaim? And maybe it will look different than it did in that earlier season, but an aspect of that I can get back and then to go after it the same way we have prioritized all these other things.

That now my fulfillment, my passion, my heart, my health are my priority. And so I know how to do the things that are important to me. And so I release self neglect and say, I am going to water my own garden. 

Jen: I love watching you and the way that you live your life, and I notice of course, that not only do you have precious individual relationships with other adults. But your sense of community is really deep and I love that we come from community spaces as well, that where truly the sum is greater than its parts.

I’d love to hear you talk a little bit about the components maybe of a truly supportive and healthy community at large. It just feels we just have women just searching high and low for it at this stage in life. And it’s hard to find. 

Thema: Yes. Yeah. And if it’s not ready made, something for you to join. It’s something for you to create. 

Jen: That’s good. It is. 

Thema: That’s what I did several years ago. I have a sisterhood circle. We call ourselves the Gathering and they are women I knew from different parts of my life. But then not just brought us together, for me to be the leader or the teacher. Brought us together for us to co-create what is gonna be the thing that nourishes us. And so a part of it is getting comfortable with other strong people. 

Jen: I would, I love that and I wanna hear you talk more about it. Are you all spread out? How do you do this functionally? How did you create this and how do you stay connected?

Thema: Yeah. So when you see like a strong, gifted, talented, smart woman, you can either buy into the myth that’s your competitor, right? Or you can believe oh my God, she’s amazing. I would love to get to know her. Yeah. And that saying, the sky is big enough for all the stars to shine. 

And so we have to heal the parts of us. If you have to be the only strong one in your circle if you have to be the only one with good ideas, if you have to be the one pouring, but you can never receive, then that’s a wound. So, if you surround yourself with mentees, if I surround myself with people who are just like, tell us more.

Thema: No. I need to be with people who can check me. I need to be with people who are like, Thema, what are you doing? Because then we’re all growing. So mutuality and reciprocity are necessary for community. So that means that I respect and admire and appreciate them. And they respect, admire, and appreciate me and no performance is required. 

Jen: Oh, that’s good. That’s good. Boy, I’d like to be a fly on the wall of your little circle. I can imagine. It’s where it goes down. 

Thema: They’re dynamic. Yeah. It’s good stuff. So in terms of like in a practical, functional way, how we do it? We meet about once a month. Initially it was always in person when life happened and also one person moved out of Los Angeles. We often meet online. And we spend time just with a check-in of what’s going on in your life. 

And then we spend time with expressing, both if we have a need or advice or guidance or prayers. And also we come with some point of inspiration that we wanna share with the group. So it might be you came across a poem, came across a song, came across a quote wrote something yourself, that you wanna share with the circle, so that way no one leaves empty. Everybody receives.

Amy: I love that. 

Jen: I do too. 

Amy: And that tracks with what you talk about in your book, Matters of the Heart. Over and over, you talk about how a healthy heart has inflow and outflow. It’s not just about serving. That is a critical part, but the inflow is just as important. 

Thema: So important. And many of us never learn to receive that, and I will share that I used to be one of those, especially in the early mothering stage when people would offer to help, my immediate answer was, I got it. I got, and they’re like, do you need? No, I got it. And so we have to like press pause on that.

Jen: Yeah. 

Thema: I have nothing to prove and what a gift to let people love me, to let people show up for me. 

Jen: I have a question because sometimes this stage of life, right, in midlife with so many transitions, there’s just a lot of shifting. We’re, a lot of us are moving into empty nest. Our jobs are changing. Some of us, our family dynamics are changing. There’s divorce or loss or change. And then also we are changing. We’re evolving as we should be. We are growing in new directions and fresh directions. And so sometimes those shifts, they deeply affect a friendship that was from a season or two ago.

And this is clunky for women. It can be clunky for me too, and we feel guilty or weird about it, or like we’ve done something wrong or we’re doing something wrong when a friendship was really located in a season and maybe isn’t necessarily transitioning to the one that we’re in. I don’t know really what my question is, except I’d just like to hear you talk about that sometimes those friendships change and how do we navigate that in a way that is healthy and honoring and honest?

Thema: Yes. Yeah. It’s so important because in life there’s both growth and loss and we don’t always grow in the same direction. And I’m saying it like that intentionally because sometimes we put a judgment on it, like I’m doing the work on myself and they’re not working on themselves. 

So without judgment, just you are growing in a different direction. And there’s that proverb how can two walk together unless they agree. So we’re no longer walking in the same direction. So either I’m not gonna walk in the direction of my purpose or my intention because out of loyalty I have to walk in your direction. Or we give ourself the grace and permission to both take our own path and to not see that as a punishment, but a releasing of I want you to be the fullness of yourself and your full self likes to talk about these things and do these things. And my full self is in a in a different place.

And sometimes we are conflict avoidant so we don’t say anything and then there’s growing resentment. And also we are holding people hostage to a false friendship because they’re spending all their time with us and we don’t really like them anymore. Not that I have to say I don’t like you anymore. 

Jen: Sure.

Thema: But to not see it as a punishment, to take space, to set boundaries, to say, I’m no longer gonna spend my whole weekend doing this, and conversations that don’t nourish me, I’m just not gonna do it. 

Now I will say when we’re shifting and growing, you can share that, ’cause sometimes a friendship is superficial and each person is just waiting for the other to go deeper. So then when I get real, transparency can be contagious. 

Jen: That’s 

true. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Thema: So it’s oh yeah, we’ve been meeting for brunch and talking about nonsense. And then I show up one day with a broken heart and I can’t hold it. And then I give you my truth and you meet me there. Now we’re doing something. 

Jen: That’s good. 

Thema: So to share what our desires or interest or values or the new thing we would like to do or incorporate and see if that’s possible and of interest to the other person and, if not, for us to say our wellness is actually more important than our loyalty.

Jen: That’s good. 

Thema: So we release. 

Jen: Boy, that is not the narrative given to most girls and women. 

Thema: Yeah. No, it’s like you’ve gotta be together forever. And so, the big thing is oh, we’ve been friends since fifth grade. That’s right. And if that’s real then beautiful.

And I also want us to release the idea that you can only have one. 

Amy: Yeah. 

Jen: Yeah. 

Thema: You know these friends who get mad ’cause you went to lunch with somebody else. What is that? 

Jen: Oh no. What is that? No, we’re too old for that. No, sorry. I don’t have time for that. 

Thema: This is not like a competition or a scarcity, right? . There can be room for abundance. 

Jen: That’s right. 

Amy: So even for someone who has a few close relationships that they’re working on and that are morphing, if someone wants to step out and find new friendships or find new community, what are some practical steps of how to do that?

Thema: Yeah, so I say pursue your passion. What are you interested in? And then you’re gonna meet people there who have a common interest. If you’re in interested in cooking, you go to a cooking class and hey, like we already have something in common. Pursue your passion. And then I would say take initiative. A bunch of us are waiting for someone else to invite us. 

You become the inviter. And when I become the inviter, I also don’t tie up my self-esteem in their answer. 

Amy: Ooh. Ooh. 

Jen: That’s tricky. 

Amy: That’s the hard part. 

Thema: Yes. Yeah. Because here’s the thing, we tell ourselves stories and you have to know with any circumstance, there’s multiple possible stories.

So if I say to someone, do you wanna grab lunch sometime? And they say, yes, but they didn’t mean it. So now, like I follow up and they don’t respond. There’s multiple reasons why that could be happening. One, their life could be full and they’re like, I really, she might be nice. I just don’t have the time. I’m full. So it’s not a rejection of you, it’s they have a full life. 

Part two, let’s say, even if it is a rejection of you. That’s a redirection gift. Like they already know you all aren’t really gonna click. And you don’t have to win them over. They’re gonna be people who meet you, who you click with. And so take it as a quick redirection. 

Jen: That’s good. Okay. What a mature way to think about that instead of just going into a spiral. 

I wanna talk, we wanna talk to you for a few minutes about Matters of the Heart. And you just, you do a deep dive on several really key ideas in this book.

So one of the things that you discuss is control issues in relationships and, oh boy, it makes me angry. I feel like you’ve been spying on me for sure, but I’d like to hear you talk about letting go of the need for control inside any given relationship with family, friendship, chosen blood, whatever and how to make that healthier. 

Control, it over promises and it under delivers, that we have a thing that we’re wanting to control. There’s an outcome we want. There is a conflict we’re trying to avoid. Fill in the gap. But it doesn’t work. I’m telling you, if it worked, I’d still be doing it. I would, ’cause I love control. But it just doesn’t pay off. But it does certainly create resentment.

Thema: Are you willing to share how, like an example of how it didn’t work, how it backfired? 

Jen: Sure. 

I was married for 26 years and I got divorced in 2020, right at the beginning of the pandemic. And. We have five kids.

So it was just such a shattering of a whole adult life, that I had built carefully and thought was gonna see it to the finish line. And at that point I had no choice but to work on my own self, which was devastating. So I steered my little car straight into like tons and tons of therapy and therapists like, you are the worst because you don’t just let us blame other people for our problems and we pay you to tell us that we’re right. But what happens is you hold up a mirror. And so I was really forced for the first time to look at my own need for control and decades that I had been attempting to control a partner’s behavior. So I would try to razzle dazzle a conflict he was having with someone else so that they wouldn’t feel it like, Oh no, that’s not what he meant and that’s not what he did. But then I would chastise him behind closed doors so that he could be verbally censured. And tried to control his relationships with his kids, with his colleagues, with our friends. It never worked. But to hell if I didn’t keep trying for 26 years.

And so having to face that and go, Hey, that wasn’t useful, and in fact made things worse. I’m able to reckon with my own behavior and go, I should have just let the chips fall where they fell. 

Thema: Aha. Thank you. Thank you for sharing that and for the honesty and transparency of your journey.

And it is so important that we see ourselves, ’cause it is easier to see everybody else, and sure they did what they did. But the one that we can shift is us. 

Jen: That’s right. 

Thema: And what you’re describing, you can see how a lot of women, or a lot of people in general end up on that path because of, I’ll call it miseducation.

So the miseducation is, relationships are work and you have to be willing to do the work even if the other person isn’t working. And so then you go into overdrive as opposed to when people think, oh, you must have been an insecure wife. You can also be overconfident of I can fix it. Yeah. I can do this. I’ll handle them. I’ll handle you totally. I’ll handle it. I’ll handle it. And it’s exhausting. And it’s unsustainable. That’s right. And you’re overworked and undernourished. And control is about anxiety, right? It is. I have experienced other people letting me down. So I’m not gonna take the risk of shared responsibility. I’m gonna, I’m going to dictate it. That’s right. I’m gonna tell you what you need to do and what you need to say and how you need to show up and what you need to wear. And then everything will be great because you will disappoint me. And so we get to a place of saying that’s not actual relationship where there is no like free will involved.

Jen: That’s right. 

Thema: There’s no free choosing. And what ends up happening, what you allude to is, people just end up censoring. Like they know that anything else is unacceptable. So do they stop the something else? No. They just hide it and have secrets and and avoid. 

I was talking to a woman who was running like a program and she said to me spontaneously, everyone’s a volunteer mind you, everyone on the committee doesn’t call me back. I’m like, why do you think that is? Do you think that? So now like you’ve run off all your volunteers!

So we, we have to trust the process and take the risk of letting adults be adults. 

Jen: Yeah. Oh boy.

Amy: In that vein all of this labor of controlling everybody else leads to emotional unavailability in ourselves. So we are trying to build new relationships from a place of being empty and unavailable. What are some things that people can do to identify emotional unavailability in themselves and shift that pattern?

Thema: Yes. So if you have the tendency of picking people who don’t pick you, you’re not emotionally available ’cause if you were emotionally available when there was nothing flowing back to you, you would shift. But because I actually fear intimacy, fear, closeness, fear being seen and known, then I will continue to pursue that, which is fleeing me because it’s safer.

That’s in friendship and in romantic relationships. Who am I choosing and then when do I come off script? With whom am I honest? So I said, coming home to yourself is telling yourself the truth, which is important. ’cause sometimes we deceive ourselves. But then I wanna also say, who are the people I’m real with and what has allowed that to happen?

Maybe what kind of personality are they? How do I feel in their presence? What do we have in common? ’cause I wanna deepen the ones that I do have. And then also expand the circle if I would like more friends or, right now, I don’t have any but it will require the risk of rejection.

Jen: Yeah. Yeah. I like that. I like, again, you just don’t outsource it to somebody else. If they were more this, then I would feel happier. I like that you said, who are you choosing? Again, I’m in control of me. That’s it. Yeah. Literally. That is it. That’s right. Which is a hard truth to reckon with.

I, I had an illusion for a long time of being in control of other people, but I was really just making them mad. Yeah. And resentful or hide from me. 

Thema: Yes. 

Jen: What you’re saying rings so true to me. One thing I want people to know about your book, is, it’s so useful and it’s so practical, and you put activation activities into the hands of your readers, so they don’t just have to take all these words and try to alchemize them into their own life. You’re like, here, let’s walk through this systematically so that you can apply this into your own life. I Do you mind sharing an example of an exercise that helps strengthen relationships, friendships or otherwise?

Thema: Right? Absolutely. So we often think about, or are familiar with marriage vows. I encourage people to first write vows to themself. What do you promise yourself that’s good? For better or for worse? For richer or for poorer, right? Do I vow to choose me when I mess up? And in my thriving season? Do I vow to choose me? 

And then after I do the vows to myself, what are the vows we wanna make as friends? What are the promises? What can you count on me for? What kind of friend are we going to be to each other? 

Jen: I love that. 

Amy: Wow. 

Jen: That’s so beautiful. Thats so powerful. 

Amy: That is, if you were raised to believe that centering yourself as selfish, that first part of the vow is, what do I promise myself? How can we change the narrative in our own head to where that is not selfish. 

Thema: So I invite people to shift the language from selfish to self care and community care. So instead of, am I being selfish? The real question is, am I neglecting myself? So I don’t wanna neglect myself. I don’t want to abandon myself. And so how am I taking care of my physical health, my mental health, my spiritual health, my social needs, and social desires? 

Amy: That’s good. Yeah. Just one word can make a huge difference, right? Yes. In that internal monologue. 

Thema: And it is true that people will get this language of selfishness. I had a client whose sibling actually told them it was selfish to go to therapy, that they could spend that hour a week volunteering. Wow. It’s what are talking about? 

Jen: Wow. 

Thema: Yeah. Whatcha talking about?

Jen: Yeah. That’s deep. That runs deep. That story. 

Thema: Yeah.

Amy: At the end of Matters of the Heart, you have an exercise to help your reader acknowledge their own success story, after going through your whole book and completing these exercises. Can I walk you through some of those questions and you answer them based on what you discovered writing this book?

Thema: I would love to. Okay. 

Amy: So it’s a series of fill in the blanks. So starting with…

Thema: My name is Thema Simone. 

Amy: My heart wounds include…

Thema: Childhood trauma, community violence, civil war. 

Amy: A realization I had about my heart as I wrote this book is… 

Thema: It is ready to receive.

Amy: An action from this book that I’ve used and will continue to use to activate love in my life is…

Thema: Showing up honestly and speaking truth.

Jen: That’s good. 

Amy: I know I can have relationships that are… 

Thema: Nourishing, fun, reciprocal, passionate, soulful. 

Amy: I am worthy of… 

Thema: Love. 

Amy: I am proud of myself for writing this book and for… 

Thema: Raising the bar on my own expectations, what is possible for me. 

Amy: And the last one, my heart is worthy of…. 

Thema: Hugs and nourishment and prayer and cool waters.

Jen: I love it. 

I love it. Listen, if that doesn’t send our listeners like straight to your doorstep, I don’t know what’s going to. Do you mind, Dr. Thema, just telling my listeners, here’s where they can find you? Here’s where they can follow you, here’s where they can get more of your work, your book, all of it.

Thema: Yes, absolutely. So my website is D-R-T-H-E-M-A.COM. My podcast is called The Homecoming Podcast on iTunes, Spotify, YouTube, SoundCloud. You can follow me on Instagram @dr.thema. And the book Matters of the Heart, as well as Homecoming, are available wherever books are sold. And I’m happy to say that both of them, along with hard copy are available in the audio version and I got to record it in my own voice. 

Jen: Yes. That’s so funny. We were just talking about recording an audio book. It’s a deal, isn’t it? 

Thema: Yes, it’s amazing. 

Jen: Nobody else can read your words. It has to be. You has, but you have to put a bucket of tea next to you to get through reading. 

Thema: The Throat Coat tea. Yes. 

Jen: Throat Coat all day long. It’s such a gauntlet. 

Listeners, we’re gonna round all those up for you in one spot so you can find Dr. Thema easily with the click of a button. 

We are so grateful to you. Thank you for coming on today. Thank you for your expertise. Everything that you say is so generous in nature. It’s what a beautiful and generous way to live on this earth. I just, if this were something that we were all able to incorporate into midlife what a, what beautiful communities we would be a part of and help to build. Just incredible. And I’m so delighted to introduce you to my community too, because what an outstanding leader and thinker you are.

So thank you, really for investing in our space today. 

Amy: Yes, thank you. 

Thema: Absolutely. You are welcome. Thank you for having me. It was a nourishing beautiful, heartfelt conversation. 

Jen: Fantastic. Thank you

You guys, thank you so much for joining us today. As mentioned, we’re gonna round all this up for you ’cause Dr. Thema’s got, we scratched the surface of her expertise, her knowledge, her offering to the world. So at jenhatmaker.com, under the podcast tab, we’ll have this episode plus all the things, all the links to Dr. Thema’s socials and her books, her podcast. She is an absolute wealth of information on wellness and health and relationships, and so delighted to have introduced her to you today if you didn’t already know her.

Also, while you’re over there, don’t forget. We’ve got the little leave us a message button and we are, those are so fun for us. So leave your message on. These are what I have zero damns to give about anymore, and you may find your sweet little voice right on this show. So that’s it, you guys. More to come in the midlife series that we are super excited about and we think you’re gonna be too. So we will see you next week.

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

Matters of the Heart: Healing Your Relationship with Yourself and Those You Love by Dr. Thema Bryant

Homecoming: Overcome Fear and Trauma to Reclaim Your Whole, Authentic Self by Dr. Thema Bryant

The Homecoming Podcast with Dr. Thema Bryant