Winning at Travel with “The Points Guy’s” Brian Kelly

Jen: Everybody, welcome to the show.

Amy: Welcome.

Jen: We had a good one today, don’t we? This guest is the second time we’ve had this guest on it, and he fires me up. I get it’s like high vibration. Yes, there is a way to live with adventure, and being also reasonable and financially responsible.

Amy: And savvy.

Jen: Savvy. He is gaming the system so well. I don’t want, we’re going to get to it. Okay. So just hold your horses, but just know this. If you’re listening and you’re like, I really would love to see more of the world. I would love to travel. I’d like to take my kids. I’d like to go with whatever, but it’s just so expensive and cost prohibitive.

And I don’t know how to do it. This is your episode. This is your episode, so sit tight, get through whatever it is we’re about to yammer about. And you’re going to be really happy that you hear this entire conversation today.

Hi, did you have dinner with my parents last night? Did you tell me that? Or a couple of nights ago?

Amy: Oh, two nights ago, I sure did. No, I don’t mention these things to you.

Jen: Maybe my mom told me.

Amy: Maybe.

Jen: I was with my mom last night at the Chiefs game. Oh, that’s right. Yeah. Of course I did not have dinner with them yesterday. Oh God, that’s right. Hello. I’m sorry. I just heard me. I heard it come out of my mouth.

What’d y’all do?

Amy: We just ate at home.

Jen: Did you cook? Or did my mom cook?

Amy: No, they did.

Jen: What’d she make?

Amy: We had fajitas. It was easy.

Jen: Okay.

Amy: Yeah, so, more stories. We talked to, listen I know exactly how to prepare for a hurricane in Houma, Louisiana.

Jen: Oh, geez.

Amy: Listen, you just have your bucket of screws and your plywood numbered and then your wife goes to the store.

Jen: Oh boy. My dad got on a roll, did he?

Amy: A roll.

Jen: Why? Why were you having this conversation?

Amy: Because it snowed there.

Jen: Oh, I see.

Amy: It snowed. We were talking about the snow in New Orleans and then the snow in Houma and them checking on their people and then, an hour and a half later.

Jen: The thing is I know you’re not even kidding.

Amy: Oh no, I’m not.

Jen: No, I know you’re not.

My dad can get real fixated on his stories and you’re good at this because you just, you’re an engaged listener.

Amy: I like his stories.

Jen: You hang in. Yeah. It’s a lot.

Amy: He’s a good storyteller.

Jen: Yeah, when he’s around his kids, at some point, me and my siblings will catch each other’s eye. One of us has to be the fall guy. So whichever one of us is feeling, is in the mood, finally has to give it like the, Dad, land the plane. You know what I’m saying? Just wrap it up. We don’t live in hurricane zone when we don’t need this knowledge.

Amy: I know, but it’s set it up for a perfect way for him to do his South Louisiana accent.

Jen: Oh boy. I’m glad I missed that. Oh sheesh.

Also Caleb went to the Marines yesterday. That’s right. I have not asked you about that. I’m in my body. I’m in my body still trying to process.

That’s a five year.

Amy: Yes, I know.

Jen: It’s a five year.

Amy: Commitment.

Jen: I was looking for the word.

And none of those years, not even a day of those years, is that contract located in the state of Texas.

Amy: I know.

Jen: None. And I just don’t even know. I don’t, I have never, in all of my years, had a child leave the state for that amount of time. Gavin went to Lubbock. But that was still in the state of Texas, and he was a college student, so he’s home a bunch.

Amy: Listen, I have been to boot camp graduation.

Jen: You have? For who?

Amy: In San Diego, for, in college. And I can’t wait for you to be there.

Jen: I think I’m going to cry through the whole thing. It’s emotional, right?

Amy: It’s emotional, but it’s amazing too. There’s nothing like watching, you send off a boy, and you get back a man.

Jen: Andrew Barlow texted me this week, and he’s You’re not going to believe the kid that comes back to you.

Amy: Yeah, it’s really special.

Jen: Enough people say that it must be true. But I’m, I don’t know, I just feel freaked out today. I just feel absolutely freaked out.

Amy: Absolutely fair.

Jen: Remy did terribly. She hates goodbyes, and she hates change. That was, everything was her worst category yesterday.

Amy: Yeah. But the Chiefs won.

Jen: Okay you know what? You win some, you lose some. And we did win one. We won one. He did send me one text. He forfeits his phone today, and he doesn’t get it back until graduation. Bye. But his last missive that he was able to scratch out to me was like, they were on the bus going down to San Antonio, it’s a processing, and then they’re flying to San Diego.

And he was like, they’re already yelling at us. I’m like so it begins. Keep your head on straight kid. Like any way. Okay. A lot going on.

Let’s do what my favorite segment that you and I do, which is GenXcellence.

This particular topic could be GenXcellence segments times a million. Let’s talk about GenXcellence, like eighties and nineties travel, air travel. versus what it is today. Traveling in our olden days. Let’s discuss.

First of all when, what was your first flight that you ever took? Do you remember?

Amy: Sixth grade to Dallas.

Jen: By yourself?

Amy: No, with my mom.

Jen: Okay. From San Antonio? So just like a little 40 minute flight.

Amy: Yeah. On Southwest.

Jen: Sure.

Amy: And then the next year my aunt took us to Six Flags.

Jen: Oh god, you were fancy kid.

Amy: Those are the two flights I took before I graduated from high school.

We really didn’t air travel much.

Jen: Do you mean Six Flags in Dallas?

Amy: It’s a 30 minute flight.

Jen: Yeah. Heck yeah. But did you think you were the shit?

Amy: It was so exciting.

Jen: Yeah, I bet it was.

Amy: And we still like dressed nice, like it was a big deal. Best behavior the perception that it was still the golden age of travel, even though it was, Southwest and peanuts, but yes, huge deal for my family.

Jen: And of course, as was. standard, that was a completely different flying experience. Like security was nothing like it is now. You essentially just walk back to your gate with maybe a little with a wand. It was so different

Amy: With your family too. They just went to the gate with you.

Jen: Oh yeah. If anybody wants to go to the gate, who wants, and that was when people did that.

Amy: Yeah.

Jen: The gate was a full of just well wishers like hugging their people, sending them off, and then they just strolled back out of the airport, stood at the window.

Yes, this is why the youngs when they see that kind of behavior on a movie, they’re like, what are they doing?

Yeah, the window What’s the grandma doing at the window?

I did not take a flight, I did not fly on an airplane until I got married.

Amy: Oh.

Jen: We didn’t have that kind of money We didn’t have fly money and there was too many of us what we gonna do? We were gonna get in our VW van and drive

My first flight was my honeymoon. What? To Acapulco. No. Yeah, it was. And when I think back to that I was still a child, of course. I was a literal teenager. But, the giddiness with which I got onto that plane and just didn’t know anything. You don’t know the rules if you’ve never flown. Oh my gosh. I giggled, take off and landing, giggled, I was like, when they say act like you’ve been there, I did the opposite of that.

And I don’t remember how we booked it. I think that was back in the day, like back in the day, the way we booked it was calling. That’s right.

Amy: Call the 1 800 number. Or if you were super fancy, you used a travel agent, but I still, to this day, I’ve never used a travel agent.

Yeah, you called on the phone and then you got mailed your tickets and then you went to the airport and had to interact with every single gate agent like with your paper ticket.

Jen: And also. Obviously, there was no such thing as like a check in kiosk. So you check in line with every single person that is flying, whether they have 14 full size suitcases or one tiny backpack. It does not matter. Everybody checks in. So the lines were like so long all the time. It’s hard to even imagine that at this point. I don’t even speak to anybody until I’m essentially like at my gate. I have all the, I have all the things.

Amy: All the things, the pre check things.

Jen: Oh, just everything. Whatever else there can be. I’ll I’ll buy anything you say. CLEAR, have it all.

Amy: I just travel with a backpack, and so I don’t check bags ever. It’s pretty easy. A backpack and a water bottle.

Jen: I know that you do. I also want to report major growth in this area for myself. And anybody who’s ever traveled with me and has traveled with me recently will acknowledge that I used to just have a giant suitcase for everything.

Just for everything. Everything. I just I don’t know what I’m going to wear. It was bad planning. Let me just put everything in. I’ll decide when I get there. I need six pairs of shoes. Don’t. But everything went in, checked all the time, giant pieces of luggage. I cannot remember the last time I used a big suitcase.

I just rolled my shit tight, pare it down, make a plan, everything. These are my two pairs of shoes.

Amy: I bet your hotel room looks a lot better too.

Jen: That’s also a good point.

Amy: That giant suitcase would just get dumped on the floor and then picked up when you left.

Jen: Yeah, as Tyler would tell you, and this is a fact, I get to a hotel room and immediately I move in. I use drawers. Everything gets hung. My empty suitcase gets put in the closet. Shoes lined. I live there.

Amy: This is enormous growth.

Jen: Thank you. Thank you.

Amy: It was not like that in the before times.

Jen: You’re right. I don’t know what’s happened, but I’m really proud

Amy: Maturity. Growth.

Jen: What did you do on the plane? I will report that this has not changed for me very much.

Amy: Oh, like, when I was young? Yeah. Those two flights? Oh, I probably played hangman with my cousins. I don’t think the Sky Miles magazine was invented yet. Oh. I just looked out the window. That’s so true.

But when I traveled for work through 90s, early aughts, that was all SkyMiles and, yeah, headphones.

Jen: Oh my god, I used to read SkyMiles. Back to front. I know that so many flights now have, of course, either or, like Southwest always has, free TV and movies on your phone. But I am an old fashioned, old timey book reader. On every plane. I turn on my little light and I get my little readers and I, that is when I read books. People always ask me, how do you have time to read all these books? I’m like, planes. I read them on planes and I read them in airports.

Amy: You know what? I, because I didn’t get my progressive glasses when I should have five years ago, the light wasn’t good enough on planes for me to read.

Jen: I know what you’re saying.

Amy: But now with my new glasses, I bet I could do that.

Jen: You sure could.

Amy: Cut down on my screen time.

Jen: It’s so true, but I will say on really long flights, that movie’s nice. That movie’s really nice.

I’m going to tell this one little story and this is really embarrassing, but one time when I was flying to Spain, I was, that’s long that’s across the Atlantic, so I’m going to watch a couple of movies to get us there. So I’ve got my little, personal movie right in front of me on this, on the seat back and I am watching, okay, what was it?

It has a really naughty title, but it’s not a naughty movie. It doesn’t matter what it was. It’s gonna come to me in just a minute, my brain won’t give it to me. But, it’s just a movie. I swear to God, in the full two hours of the movie, there is a three second flash of a man’s bare ass. Just it’s in passing and it’s in a thing.

I’m here, I was married at the time, Brandon’s here, On the other side of me is a nun. She’s a nun in her full habit, in her full habit. And I, that’s fascinating, right? How often do you see a nun on a plane? And I’m just, this is very interesting. And as you can imagine, I had a whole conversation with her.

Whatever, we’re over the ocean. I’m going to watch my movie. It’s coming on. I’m watching it. The ass comes up. I swear, this is true. That very second the announcement comes on and you know when an announcement comes on, it freezes your screen. It just freezes, and so there I am with a man’s bare ass frozen on my screen and my nun is right next to me and the announcement was approximately 100 minutes long. It just wouldn’t end. And after 45 seconds of the announcement and I couldn’t take it anymore because I was, felt like I was corrupting my nun, I just finally brought my hands up and I just covered the screen and she burst out laughing and it was really embarrassing, but. That’s why you should read books on a plane, that was the moral of my story. Okay.

Amy: Noted. Yes. Okay. More books.

Jen: Golly.

Okay. Oh my gosh.

Now, if it’s not evident, because of our segments, we’re discussing travel today with our guest, and we have one of the most influential names in travel, and he’s been on the show once before. And he is having a repeat performance because he is so fantastic and you guys loved him and it is Brian Kelly. Now if you don’t, if his name does not immediately click in, you probably know him as the Points Guy. The go to resource for all things travel optimization. So like whether it’s first class upgrades or navigating loyalty programs, booking dream vacations on a budget, figuring out how to use credit cards to maximize your points, airline loyalty programs, Brian is your literal guy.

He has transformed the way, genuinely, like millions of people travel and travel smart. So he has a brand new book that just came out called, How to Win at Travel. It’s a game changer. I told him on this episode, it is a travel Bible. It’s packed with insider strategies practical tips, a ton of humor, cause he’s really funny and you’ll see that. Everything altogether, it doesn’t just make travel accessible. It makes it exciting. It makes it affordable. You will be stunned what he can teach you to do just with strategy, just by smartly using your card, your loyalty points and your rewards, how far you can go on such a small amount.

This book. demystifies everything for you. If it feels overwhelming, like the reward programs or the hidden deals or the websites to follow, he just makes it all just easy. It’s just right at your fingertips. And so whether you’re like a seasoned jet setter, or this is all brand new to you, but you’ve got this little thing in you going, I wish I could see more of the world, or I wish I could bring my kids with me, or I wish travel was something that was accessible for a normal person instead of just rich people.

I’m telling you our guest today promises you that this is accessible for all of us. And he’s right. He’s right. I have learned so much from him and he has changed my travel game for sure. So we are delighted to have the absolutely marvelous Brian Kelly back on the show.

Welcome back. Fan favorite, Brian Kelly. Hi, you look so good.

Brian: I know. And I just had a baby a month ago.

Jen: So we were just talking about that.

Amy: Congratulations.

Brian: When it rains, it pours, the book industry, sometimes the timing isn’t exactly, what you want, go big or go home. But my little one is the cutest Cooper Kelly. He’s just over a month and his brother is two. And I can cry thinking about Dean going up to Cooper and just kissing him on the forehead in the morning. And I’m like, this is it. This is what matters. So…

Jen: Here it is. And also Dean was just a tiny little guy until Cooper comes along and now he’s a giant person.

Brian: Oh my God. I know. I need to adjust how I lift up Cooper because Oh wait, this isn’t a bowling ball.

Jen: That’s right. That’s right. I’m so happy for you. Congratulations to you and your, like your brood of boys. It’s just so wonderful. And also going to two is no joke. How are you doing, dad? Cause I struggled going to two and I’m just going to preface it.

Brian: Two is interesting. It’s teaching me things about patience that it’s funny in a way. I think you have a good sense of humor too. You have to laugh because the short circuiting of the brain, and the quick mood swing is like, a lot of times I find myself just saying, this is really fascinating. Like I’m watching like the short circuiting going on and I laugh and I taught myself I’m not the type of parent I don’t believe I’m strict. I grew up in like, I’m like an elder millennial.

My parents were pretty tough with me and didn’t do the whole, let’s have a therapy session about everything. But I just let him go. And I just learned distraction, just always have different things and it always, it comes and goes and I know what he loves. And then he’ll eventually come around.

So if he throws a dinner roll at dinner, most people will, laugh at the restaurant. Just trying not to. I think my controlling what I can control has been the best type of parenting because they do model off of you, right? And if you’re not going to give them this crazy, so that’s at least it so far. It is fascinating for sure.

Jen: It’s, isn’t that a good approach? This is fascinating.

Amy: I honestly thought you were talking about your own mood swings trying to parent two and how fascinating your own brain wiring was but now I understand it was the toddler.

Brian: Personally and I wonder I think this is a male versus female genetics, I love the baby phase to an extent, but I feel like my infant, when he cries and I’m not a hundred percent, when he’s not wet, that to me is more challenging. Like that the certain cry can trigger like more emotions out of me than the toddler. Like I love my son. The more interactive phase is good for me. Like I’ll still take them to a diner one on one and I just love the conversation. The baby, I really give the stay at home moms specifically who are with 24 /7 lack of sleep.

Jen: It’s so real.

Brian: I’ve always respected women, but after having children and, knowing what a stay at home mom really does nonstop.

Jen: That it’s no joke.

Amy: It’s hardcore.

Jen: I am with you. Like the older they get, the more interactive they get, the better, like it keeps getting better. You’re going to really enjoy the boys when they’re like all the way up to teenagers. Really, you are. It just keeps getting more and more fascinating. And I gritted my way through the teeny, teeny infant stage, too. I just, I need to sleep nine hours a night. Yeah. And it’s tricky with that four week old.

Amy: But it sounds like you’re doing good.

Brian: I’m doing good. I have amazing help. Being a single gay dad, I’m not going to pretend to be, I couldn’t do it.

Jen: Don’t be a hero.

Brian: I have a baby nurse who’s helping at nights and I’ve tried, I was doing it with my first son . I wanted the experience and I wanted to understand it, but man, I don’t do well not on sleep and I found myself getting short and angry at times. And I’m like, Oh man, many women, I think you’re just wired differently to do that. I don’t think at least myself to do that full time would be good for me or the child.

Jen: Listen, if you can have night help, have it. Nobody gets a prize or parade for just doing everything.

Brian: I was feeling guilty and a friend said, how many diapers do you remember your dad changing? When I was like, and he’s in the beginning, it’ll be okay, to have help with that.

Jen: This is so exciting. Just know you’re talking to two girls who understand you, I obviously have five kids She has four sons like she understands your boy house that you are now weaning.

Amy: I sure do.

Jen: Deeply. Like deeply.

Brian: All of my friends with girls are like, have girls, you’ll realize how much cleaner and like more calm it is. Allegedly.

Amy: Pros and cons on both sides.

Jen: Yeah, you’re right. You’re right. It’s so fun to have you.

The last time you were on the show was before Dean. It was PD, pre- Dean. So like life has really grown for you in so many ways, like personally, professionally, it’s amazing to watch. Like your star is just, your trajectory is so up. It’s fun. I’m so happy for you.

So for people who maybe haven’t heard the first episode with you, when you were on here, can you just like high level for my listening community, this is how you went from like, booking your family’s vacations when you were 12 years old. To becoming the Points Guy.

And anytime I talk about you, cause I’ve learned so much from you and I follow so much of your practices, people are like, Oh yeah, everybody that I know knows you. So we’re all listening. So can you just talk about your story arc a little bit and then we’ll drill down?

Brian: Yeah. And I want to thank you because after our last podcast, one of your listeners, Emily, applied for job at the Points Guy, and now she’s a big leader on our editorial team.

Jen: Oh, no way.

Brian: Yeah. Literally. How cool is that?

Jen: That’s bananas.

Amy: That’s fun.

Brian: She was a teacher and she would watched the episode and said, you know what I, she loved points in travel, so who knows what’ll come of this one?

Jen: Let’s find out.

Brian: So I got into the points where I was 12 years old, I’m 41 now. So this was 1995. My dad was he got a job working from home, which in the nineties was not common and I became his travel booker. Cause I was an AOL, early internet, the days when you had to dial up the young kids, these days have no idea our plight, but I was our computer whiz, and I’m one of four kids and my parents, middle class, middle, upper, maybe, but they never let us know that.

And he said, if we, if you can figure out how to use my miles from all my work travel, we can go on a trip. And precocious 12 year old, I had just read The Firm by John Grisham and I wanted to go to the Cayman islands because it sounded fabulous. And I literally, I figured out a way. My mom and I flew American through Miami, my Dad and siblings through us airways. So I did this whole thing. It was the best trip, one of the best trips of my life. And it brought our family together. My dad was traveling a lot. So every year we would take his points and go on a trip. So it was like therapy for us. My dad missed a lot of basketball games, but every year we took this amazing trip, usually in January to the Caribbean for free.

And so I was in the points game in the nineties. I had no idea that other people were doing this. My dad and I, like Wendy’s had a promo with American Airlines. We had all of our friends sending us their Wendy’s frosty cups and stuff. So we were really, it was a father, son bonding thing. And then in college I was student body president, studied abroad.

All of a sudden. I got elite status, some weird promotion. And that’s when I found out it was 2004 and I stumbled upon Flyer Talk, which is this Reddit like community of really crazy travel people. And that was my, Oh my gosh, I’ve been doing this for fun for years with my dad, but now there’s people around the world that do this too.

And I dove in, I went down that rabbit hole. And as a college kid with no income, That community taught me so much. I was, people were gifting me, Oh, I have an expiring free flight. Do you want to go to Paris? Like it was really cool community. There was a whole gay community where we would meet up around the world.

And it was really cool. And I saw that like frequent flyer miles, change people’s lives. And graduate college, ended up working at Morgan Stanley, where I then become my dad. I’m traveling 50 percent of the time. Banking points. It’s during the great recession. And at Morgan Stanley, they were like, I never lost my job, but every year they’d be like your bonus is not being laid off.

Now come back again next year. And, but luckily for me, I had points. So I joke in the book, it’s called my “points-rich, cash-poor era”, where I, due to elite status and my points, I was flying every weekend because it was cheaper for me to fly and stay at hotels where I got upgraded with free breakfast than to stay in New York city and be invited out to dinners with friends where I didn’t have sometimes a hundred dollars.

I couldn’t do anything at home, but I had all these points.

Jen: My god, that is so insane

Brian: getting the penthouse suite and free afternoon appetizers in the lounge and then I’d fly home. So I was living this double life, which I soon began to realize was like, not normal. And and so I started the Points Guy in 2010 after I had just been denied again, a promotion and they were basically like, come back again.

And I was so annoyed. My, my ex at the time was like, you’ve got to monetize this special skill and it wasn’t even a blog at first, it was a travel agency. So I was the Points Guy where I would book your trips for you. You’d pay me 50 bucks a ticket and I would use all my knowledge to help families go on amazing trips.

And then a friend said, you should really start blogging. It’s 2010. I’m telling you this will be a huge hit. And he said, don’t do anything weird. Just blog once a day, every day, the same time on a slow news day, just talk about a former trip you did. And I did that and after about six months it just started to take off.

It was It’s been a whirlwind ever since.

Jen: Totally. That was lightning in a bottle. Like the timing, you’d banked enough experience, 2010, blogging, everything was working for you to achieve liftoff. It’s amazing.

Amy: Man. So did you start that travel agency side hustle while you were still employed?

Brian: Yep. And I actually registered it with our outside business interests, which they were like, ha. Okay, Brian, you and your rinky dink little thing, but they approved it.

So I started, I was doing my side thing. I started blogging. And this is a tip I give to every entrepreneur. Go through your spam inbox once in a while, because it was February of 2011, but the blog’s moderately successful. I’m not making any money, but the New York Times, Seth Kugel, who was the frugal travel columnist, he had emailed me and it went to my spam inbox. And I’m just clicking through and I’m like, Oh my God, New York Times interview request. And his take was for his budget travel column was that points are useless, book the cheapest flight.

And I was like, Oh no. You don’t get it. So I met with him in New York as soon as I was home, three hour meeting and he was dating a girl in Brazil at the time, and he could only see her like once or twice a year, on a New York Times writer salary, and I helped him book a trip that day using points and he surprised her.

And the way he looked me in the eyes and goes, I get chills thinking about it because he was like, this is incredible. He’s you have taught me a skill that will let me visit a loved one. And to this day, so he ended up writing an article that changed my life. It blew up the site at the time, the search engine, a New York Times article linking directly to your blog. The Google search results went through the roof. At the same time, I had gotten into affiliate marketing through a friend from college. And he said, all the credit card companies now we’re like this Points Guy, who’s a big advocate for our industry. So they got me affiliate deals where I would just blog and instead of linking to Amex, I would use my link and they would pay me a couple hundred bucks per credit card that people would get. Lo and behold, my audience is all bankers and lawyers and consultants, traveling for work. So I had a business traveler audience, great credit, and then they trusted me.

And then you leverage that with media exposure, which then begot media exposure. And it was really, that was less than one year for my first blog posts. And it was crazy from getting my first affiliate link, I made 1 million dollars in six months, 2011.

Jen: I don’t think you told me that the first time. That’s bananas.

Brian: It was like winning the lottery. It really was. It was like, my mom was like, this is too good to be true. And I’m like, and of course in those days it was like a net 60 pay. So on paper, this affiliate company was like, you have every two days, it would just be a new drop of money in my account because of how, and so I was living this reality of, I hadn’t seen any of the money yet. My mom was convinced it was a scam, but I’m pretty sure a friend of mine had been blogging and he had a much smaller blog and he told me the numbers he was making. And I’m like, so that’s when I quit my job, hired an editor. We just put pedal to the metal. And the TPG now has 200 employees, millions of people.

Jen: Do you really, you have 200 employees?

Brian: Not quite two, but definitely well over, yeah, over 150 employees based on how you look at it. So yeah, it’s, we surpassed, some of the top travel websites in traffic over the time. And now funny enough, affiliate marketing was looked back down upon as like this trashy method of advertising.

And now you look at, The New York Times bought Wirecutter, which is affiliate. Everyone’s doing affiliate. It’s how you sustainably grow. So I was doing that. So yeah it’s really been just a magical ride.

Jen: My gosh, you’ve just been ahead of several curves. Yeah.

Brian: Someone’s looking out for me somewhere.

Jen: You have instinct for what is working and what is coming and what is going to actually be sustainable. That is, I’m stunned at your staff. What are they all doing for you?

Brian: We’ve got a huge editorial team that obviously covers everything in travel and we’re way more than just points now.

We cover Disney, we cover cruises, anything that’s relevant to consumers. We’ve got a team in the UK but we have a ton of people in technology. So we’re building out tools to help people travel better. Yeah there’s a lot going on at the Points Guy where there’s going to be a lot of new things coming out as well.

So it’s exciting to have seen it grow from little blog to media platform to now becoming a more personalized and tools and technologies will be coming out.

Jen: I am curious because you started it as a one man show. And so, really operating in your skillset, which is maximizing points and travel and credit, like you’re so good at it, it is different for managing a 150 plus staff and a giant enterprise. So I’m guessing you have brought people in with you at the top level to run this ship?

Brian: And so to be clear, so I actually, it was 2012, I sold the company in 2012. So it was less than, it was a wild two years as publicly traded company came in and wanted to buy my little blog and for a pretty significant amount of money.

Every one of my friends was like, take, all my entrepreneur friends were like take that money off the table. Cause I did think it was too good to be true because but I sold the company, but I remained on. And then we just continued to grow like a weed. And I started realizing my expertise, I love being around our consumer going on media, talking about this, explaining these kinds of complicated topics to a mass audience.

That’s what I’m good at. So 2020, I actually realized I way burnt out. And I give so much credit to people managers, especially with, the current generation today. I don’t, that’s not my expertise is that people management, talent management, which is funny. Cause I was in HR and talent management at Morgan Stanley..

So in 2020, I had a realization and I chatted with the parent company and they’re like, Brian, we’ve been waiting for you to come to us and say this, like you should do the things you’re really passionate and good at, which is media communication. A lot of people can help run a business, but not everyone can go on Good Morning America and in three and a half minutes, nail it and help people get awareness about the site. So yes. And that also coincided with, I wanted to have kids. I do not want to be working crazy hours. I need flexibility, being a single parent, I need to be there for my kids.

So I still love travel and Dean has been to 16 countries in his short two years and Cooper is getting ready to go to Thailand in a couple months.

But yeah, it’s been an evolution and I’m very lucky to have a parent company that respects me and my decisions and I’ve been able to grow my career and that’s why, they let me write this book, which not that they let me, but they’re supportive of me doing this, which has been a really fun professional endeavor.

Jen: That’s fantastic. We’re about to get into that book, but let’s drill into some travel stuff. I’m thinking about my listener who’s going. Help me know what you’re talking about, help me know how to do this. You call this the Platinum Age of Travel. And what does that mean to you? Why are you saying that? Why is now the time, why is it an optimal time to take advantage of travel?

Brian: So I want anyone listening, oh you haven’t done the points thing or you’re good with your cashback credit card, I want you to understand that this loyalty points, these credit cards Are so vital to the credit card ecosystem the airlines are making more money from frequent flyer miles than they are from selling flights and in the U. S. we are the only country in the world where you can get thousand dollar sign up bonuses from getting a single credit card. It sounds too good to be true and I think the issue that so many people have is why would they do that, right? What’s the catch? But there are so many credit cards that you can get that give you value for getting them and then category bonuses whether it’s groceries, dining, shopping.

So you do not need to be a business traveler. You do not need to be wealthy. In the golden age of travel, you had to be rich. Period. Full stop. Oh, everyone dressed so nice on planes. That’s because everyone was really rich, right? And we can look back on those days and think they were perfect, but actually it was really dangerous to travel back then.

There were hijackings in the 70s. I start the book with enough of this waxing poetic on, Everything was better before. I think we do that a lot as a society, Oh, it was, things were so great, back then they actually weren’t, but, one picture on social media, on Facebook, this is what travel used to be like with piano players and Turkey dinners but that’s not — economy class didn’t even exist back then.

Amy: Wow.

Brian: In 2023, there was no commercial jet crashes this past, the last couple of months there’ve been a couple incidents, but by and large, you’d need to travel for a hundred thousand years to statistically have a chance of dying on an airplane. It is extraordinarily safe and it’s affordable. It may seem expensive, but actually, air travel is so affordable. The world’s connected like never before. And in the U S if you play your cards no pun intended, you can finance your travels using your loyalty points and there’s so many different banks competing for your loyalty. I want to make very clear though, you have to be smart about your credit.

If you’re in credit card debt and you getting a credit card, you’re going to be that 20 percent interest is going to negate the value of all your points. I don’t want to judge anyone in debt. I was there myself. But if you are, instead of getting a points card with a high interest rate, you may want to get the 0 percent APR focus on paying that down.

But for anyone listening, if you’re paying with cash for things, paying with a credit card, there’s three main reasons why you want to do that. Number one is for the points. Cause the cost of points is built into everything. So if you use cash to buy something, you’re forgoing valuable points that you can use later.

But secondly, as protections. I can’t tell you how much fraud is out there these days. And when you use a debit card, even you might end up getting that money back. But if someone steals that you’re out of cash for a while, you may not be able to make rent. So credit card companies literally you call them, that’s fraud instantly off your bill.

Jen: Totally.

Brian: If you go to Mexico and you get a vacation rental and you show up and it’s a dump, nothing like the photos, your credit card company will fully take that off.

Jen: That’s right.

Brian: You buy clothes online. There are even credit cards that the Capital One card has return insurance. So you buy something off of Instagram, it doesn’t fit and the company doesn’t want to let you return it, certain Capital One cards give you up to 900 dollars a year in protection. So protection is key.

And thirdly, it’s float, with high interest rates these days, you keep your cash, you put it on a credit card, you get your points, your protection, you don’t need to pay it off for 45 days. So you can let your cash earn interest and then pay it off.

So you’re getting free float protections and points. And I want to reframe how people think about credit. So I do think it’s important that we’re wary of it. You got to play the game. You got to pay it in full every month, but your score actually goes up with the more available credit you have to you. So what I say is playing this points game is not just about a free trip to Florida, but it’s winning at life because you learn how to take control of your finances and your score will go up as long as you’re paying your bills in full every month.

That’s a two, that’s half your credit score. So by playing the points game. Earning thousands in free flights, you also will get yourself lower mortgages, so it’s a larger thing in it. And the most important thing is those who play this points game, they pay attention to their credit cards. They make sure their payments are hit.

Jen: That’s right.

Brian: And I think it’s just, it’s a fun game to play.

Amy: What do you think the biggest misconceptions are on for loyalty programs, points programs, like what does the general public get wrong on that?

Brian: The general public gets wrong, cause they’ve probably been burned that there’s no availability. These points are worthless. Anytime I go online to use them, I’m not seeing all these great deals that everyone else has. And I admit like airline websites will often show results. They’re not going to always show you the best deal, what people need to get. So there’s three main types of rewards.

There’s the cash back cards. Then you have your airline and hotel cards. We call them co brands. So you’re going to get some perks at Hilton or free checked bags with Delta and United. Those cards are great for those perks, but the best card, any travel expert will tell you they’re called transferable points credit cards.

And this is the biggest trend in the industry where you don’t want to put all your airline miles with one airline. You don’t want to put, because you want to go to Paris and, American doesn’t have any flights that day. You only have American miles. So you can’t transfer to Delta who has the best deal.

So what we, you want these transferable points, credit cards, the Chase Sapphire, Amex Gold, because when it comes time to redeem, you have tons of different transfer partners. Now, historically you had to be an expert to figure out, okay, great. I have all these Amex points, but where the heck do I transfer them?

But there are now tools. The biggest one is called Point.Me.

Point.Me is the website. And you can, Point.Me/Amex and you use this tool for free, you type in, you want to go Chicago to Cabo, it’ll actually tell you instead of spending 50, 000 points for, you can actually get that flight for 20, 000 points by transferring to Aeroplan, which is a partner of United.

It does all the heavy lifting for you. So there’s a bunch of new tools, which I talk about in the book, which you don’t need to be an expert. You just need to use the right technology and you need to use the right credit cards up front. And I think once you get to have a little bit of a strategy,

Jen: The last time you were on, I use Sapphire Chase Sapphire, so I can use it in a billion different places, however I want to use it.

So I did two things after you were with me a couple of years ago. Number one, I started putting absolutely everything on my credit card, my mortgage, everything. So I’m just, it’s such a big amount every month. Then I pay, I’m so neurotic. I pay it off like once a week.

Brian: And that’s smart by the way and especially for anyone out there getting a mortgage paid. Even when you pay your bill on time, the credit card companies often report your balance randomly. So it’ll show that you’re so especially in the lead up to applying for a mortgage, when you’ve got to have that score as high as possible, pay it once a week, even more before the application date, because that debt to credit utilization ratio, they’ll report it randomly. So even if you’re going to pay it on time, it might show you have half of your available credit.

Jen: You told me that last time. And so I was like, Oh, I’ll set a little alarm to pay it off once a week. They’ll not catch me sleeping on that, what looks like a big balance, but it’s about to all get paid. So I started doing that, which just exponentially fired up all my points. And then you told me, cause I don’t know why I was doing this. I was just banking them all, hoarding them like crazy. I was just watching those and you were like, you need to use those right away. They’re like, they lose value.

The longer you just sit there in a pile and don’t use them, they’re the most today. And I was like, Oh my God, I’m telling you and I finished our interview, I booked something. That very day with my points. And so now I use them instead of just bank them like for no good reason whatsoever. So I want to ask you this question because somebody listening is Oh my God, this is intimidating.

He’s so smart about this. He knows everything there is to know about everything there is to know. And you do. So for somebody who’s, they’re at the starting line. They’re like, I don’t even have a credit card or I’ve never even thought about this before. What would you say? Okay, here’s the first one, two or three things you’re going to do.

Just make, this is where you begin.

Brian: The number one. So I know people, if you want to ease into this, if you pay rent, there is a credit card called B I L T. It’s a no annual fee card. You earn points on rent with no transaction fees or anything. It is the ultimate no brainer. And those bill points are those special kind that I just talked about transferable.

So you can transfer those valuable bill points to Hyatt, to United, to Air France, Virgin, Emirates, wherever you want to go. So the BILT card, and that gives double points on travel and triple on dining. It’s the most no brainer card out there. It’s issued by Wells Fargo. That’s where I would start

Jen: As you’re talking, I’m just opening tabs.

Brian: So the BILT card for, especially for renters, but even for anyone, if you spend on travel and dining and don’t want to pay a fee, that’s your go to. I would say the other card is really good is Chase Sapphire Preferred. That’s 2X on travel and dining. So you want to start with the card and no matter what the points are, so people listening, if you have a bunch of American airlines or United miles sitting around, the joy of this space is that, there’s so much knowledge on the internet already. So I would recommend starting off with “how to maximize my American airlines miles”. You’re going to get some of the best blog posts from people out there and just start understanding because there’s prolific blog, obviously at the Point Guy, our writers are amazing.

There’s other bloggers out there, but what I love about points, they’re this currency that the more you mine your knowledge, the more you sit there and say, you know what, I’m going to pay a little bit of attention, all of a sudden, those points that you think are worthless, you’ll have aha moments, and then you’ll say, Oh my gosh, we can actually afford to fly out West this year and let’s go see our cousins. That’s the moments that like, when I see people on the street and their eyes light up and they say because of your knowledge, like we got the family together this year. That is truly why I still do what I do.

Amy: Speaking of newbies, I just got my first points card. We’ve always just had a cash back, basic card. I got one that’s transferable, we’re starting to use it. I know.

Jen: Yay, I love this.

Amy: I have a unique situation where I have a family member who gets me a discount on Virgin. I don’t have to fly with them, but I have to fly into Heathrow. So I’ve got to get from Austin to a virgin hub like JFK or Atlanta.

So I looked at, do I need to put all of my eggs in a Delta basket? Just so I have as many as possible, but I ended up doing a transferable one, but what are some other tips for me as I embark on this? And how can I prepare for sort of travel emergencies where I have to change plans, but my points can help me?

Brian: Yeah. So another reason I want to let everyone here know why points are like an insurance policy. So in your case, they can get you what we call positioning flights. So your long flights paid for, but you’ve got to always find a way to get yourself to that gateway city. One of the things that people don’t realize especially when flights go wrong, having points in a transferable currency is like insurance because if your flight gets canceled and you’ve got to get to where you’re going, I always use my points.

I fire up my phone. I fire a Point.Me and I type in where I’m trying to go and it’ll show me all the options of the other airlines flying that day and using points. Now, if I really need to get to going to somewhere, people don’t realize having points, all the major airlines will let you make and cancel reservations fully free of charge.

It’s like buying a refundable ticket. So I will sometimes, if I really have to get somewhere, I’ll book a points reservation on another airline leaving a couple hours later. And if my original flight were to get canceled, I already got an option. If my flight leaves on time, I cancel the other one and get all my points back and taxes and fees, everything.

It’s fully refundable. And this is where, it depends where you live. The Chase Sapphire Reserve is an amazing card. You can transfer to Southwest, which could might be able to get you to a city to, to United or Chase Sapphire Reserve lets you book any flight you want for one and a half cents a piece in value, which is a very good redemption value. And to your point, your credit cards back on protections, when airlines cancel your flights, I go into this in the book, but you really don’t have many rights here in America. They just, the DOT just passed a law, a ruling saying that airlines, if they really delay or cancel your flight, they have to issue you a refund, which you may get back in a couple of weeks, right?

But if you’ve got your kids and you’ve got to stay in a hotel, people who use The Chase card or an Amex Platinum, your credit card will reimburse you $500 or $1, 000 per person whenever anything bad happens with your flights, where you can get your family in a nice hotel, if your bags go missing, they’ll reimburse you in addition.

So having these more premium credit cards that have annual fees, my dad always told me cheap is expensive. So for those listening who have, I’m just going to get a no annual fee credit card, those cards don’t come with these really valuable perks that can help get you home when things inevitably do go wrong.

Jen: And they end up almost always paying for themselves, of course, if you use them strategically and you use them well.

This episodes going to come out just a couple of weeks ahead of spring break season. I’d love to hear your thoughts. What’s awesome this year. What are you keeping your eye on? What should, if travelers have some flexibility I don’t know, where’s the deal.

Brian: Okay. This is one of my favorites people. So if you want to get cheap flights, you need to learn how to use Google flights. So google.com/flights. It’s a free tool that pulls in almost all the airlines. So this is where I go, and one of the best ways to save money on flights, you’ve got to be flexible, so say spring break your kids, you’ve got one week plus minus a day. This is what you can do. So when you go to google.com/flights, you click the explore button, and you can put in your home airport and then you can put in an entire region like Caribbean or Hawaii.

And what this is going to do, you can say what dates you’re available and it will pull in every flight, you can even, you know, filter to non-stop and it’ll show you a map of the Caribbean but the price of a non-stop flight to every single island. And I encourage families, this is how you save money. You know go to an island maybe you haven’t been to before but find where the deals are. That’s how you really save with travel these days, let the destination and let the deal to find your destination. Have fun with it. And think about that, especially if you’re booking multiple tickets, how much money that’s when you save real money, spend it on the amazing horseback riding experience, spend it on the meals and the fun.

So that’s the Google Flights Explore map, and if you can’t find anything now, Google Flights also lets you set alerts. So if a flight, if say you really want to go to Cancun, way in advance, set the dates and then just set an alert and say, when this flight drops, let me know. And that’s when you strike.

Jen: So good. See how useful this is?

Amy: So useful.

Jen: I have five tabs open from this, from 40 minutes. I did not know about that Google Explore.

Brian: Oh, it’s so fun. And then say you want to take the kids to Europe in the summer, but you’re agnostic, just fly anywhere on the continent, get there, and then you can take trains, that’s where the excitement, I know it’s overwhelming for a lot of people, but I’m telling you at least start your search and see what the options are. I’m always shocked where I’m like, I can go to Iceland for 300 bucks. That’s fun. Let’s go to Iceland, at least it’ll at least give you ideas.

Jen: I love that.

Amy: I’m wary of jet lag for short trips. We haven’t been airline travelers much. We’re road trippers, but I really want to teach my kids to go further and further. In your book, one thing I loved was the jet lag hack of using an app to prep before. And then even on the plane, and then when you get there and then on the way back. So it’s not this two week disruptive thing.

Jen: Yeah, let’s hear that. Let’s talk about that.

Brian: So writing that chapter, I learned a ton. So I was always of the mindset, I’m going to sleep on the plane, take a sleeping pill. I’m going to have a ton of coffee when I land. I’m going to force, you’re doing these things that frankly, jet lag is all about light exposure.

That’s what it is. This is your eyes have two functions, one to see and two, to regulate your circadian rhythm. It accepts the light and it says, okay, we’re still light here. And your circadian rhythm, it’s not just how tired you are. That’s your digestion. That’s your immune system. And as I’ve gotten older, jet lag hits me harder and it can really throw a damper on a trip when you’re waking up wide awake at three in the morning in London. And you’re like, What am I doing at three in the morning? So yeah, Time Shifter is the app you’re discussing. That’s really the most effective way. It’ll help you get used to jet lag days before your trip. That’s the key. You start making, you go to bed a little bit earlier.

It’ll tell you when to stop caffeine, when to take melatonin. And by the way, don’t do the melatonin gummies that are long release. You got to do quick releasing melatonin is the key. That’s so when you stop seeing light at certain parts of the day, or light, it’s not always sleeping the entire flight, but it’s reducing your light exposure.

So that app is, I think the most effective way that I’ve ever used it. It seems a little hard up front. Oh, can I go to bed an hour earlier? But doing these small things can dramatically improve. Because yeah, that jet lag, especially with kids, man, I’m like, I don’t have the luxury of being up all night and then having the kids wake up and I’m a zombie and it’s like dangerous, so…

Jen: This is so great. I love that you’ve written a book. It is such a consolidation of best practices, hacks, tips, tricks, all of it. It’s just, it’s all, it’s a one stop shop. It’s amazing. And in it, obviously you talk a lot about traveling with family and the joy of it. And listen, Amy and I were talking before we hopped on with you.

I think a lot of women will say traveling with kids is a hindrance. That is a barrier for me to do this. So I just won’t, I guess I can’t do it for a decade. And I’m like, this dude is putting his babies on his backpack and he is hitting the airport and he is going to 12 countries and you’re doing it.

So it is possible, isn’t it? I’d like to hear you talk a little bit about traveling with family, little kids, your kids are babes, littles, and you’re doing it.

Brian: I will say that so the book, by the way it’s a lot of information, but it’s all separated in the chapters. So the family travel chapter, I have shared it with friends who travel and everyone has said it is the most comprehensive place for information on and even before you have kids. I talked to board certified OBGYNs, best time for baby moon, when you might not want to travel, tips for being healthy while pregnant and traveling. From beginning, through having, older kids and unaccompanied minors, most parents, if you’re going to send your kid unaccompanied, which many people do, you can actually get a gate pass from the airline so you can accompany your child to the gate to make sure they get on the right flight. Cause recently we saw some poor kid get on the wrong flight. So I wanted to just put in all the, I feel like as parents, the more knowledgeable you are, and it’s confusing even with infants.

Do they sit on your lap for free? Or should I be guilted into buying a car seat? It’s always about what’s best for you and your kid, but also leaving kids in car seats for too long. It’s not safe in itself. So I found the rules to be very overwhelming. And even some airlines, international airlines don’t allow car seats. Because kids aren’t supposed to be in them for more than two hours and they could actually asphyxiate.

So it is the wild west a little bit, which I get for parents is very overwhelming.

Do you check a car seat? Some people will say that’s dangerous, so I wanted to at least put in, here’s the lay of the land. No one’s going to make the best, better decision for your baby, but you, but here’s like generally the tools.

And at the end of the day, it may seem daunting, but put together a checklist. You want to have your Ziploc bag for the blowout that’s going to happen right before you get on the flight. But if you’ve got snacks, if you’ve got extra changes of clothing for not just your child, but also yourself, because you will get you will get dirty.

If there’s one thing parents take away from this, especially those who used to love traveling internationally, the U S is one of the most child unfriendly countries I’ve ever been to the way that people stare or, look down on parents in this country or if a child’s at a restaurant, I would go as far to say almost every other country in the world I’ve been to is way more accommodating in Portugal. When you’ve got a small kid, they take you to the front of the immigration line, so you don’t have to wait in line. And Italy, they have family security lanes that are actually shorter, not longer, like the family lanes in the U S. Kids are at restaurants. I was in Ibiza, Spain, and there were newborns, a mother was nursing a newborn at 10 PM at night out to dinner with her friends, totally normal. So I just want to be for those who may think they want to travel.

It is possible. And my, maybe my best tip is no matter the flight, and my son is a good traveler. He’s had his moments, but sure there’s one constant truth. The flight will eventually be over .

Jen: Great point.

Brian: The memories from the trip will far outweigh, the temporary discomfort of being on the flight.

Jen: A hundred percent.

Amy: So as we wrap up, if readers could take away one thing from how to win a travel, if they’re experienced or brand new to this, what would you want it to be?

Brian: You need to be your own advocate. I see people getting bullied around in airports and melting down and you need to know when to ask for favor and when you are owed something and that makes all the difference.

I see people screaming at airline agents, the ones who hold all the power. You need to be strategic and know when to hang up and call again. That’s one of my other favorite tips. When you’re on with an agent, who’s not helping you, stop butting heads. Say thank you. Take a deep breath. Hang up and call again.

Often, the agents don’t know how to help you or you could get a very experienced agent that you’re very nice to. Hey, this is what I’m thinking of doing. I really need your help. I got to go visit my daughter who’s studying abroad. Can’t really figure it out. Or could you change the dates because we’re now going to meet in Madrid.

That’s way better than calling and saying, I’ll never fly this airline again unless you do this, right? I think people need a mentality shift.

And the issue is they don’t understand how the system is works. So then they’re making mistakes by assuming they’re owed something when they’re not. So in general, be nice. It gets you further than being a jerk.

Jen: Totally. Gosh, I’ve seen this so many times in airports and on planes. That’s the way to do it. All so you got a second kid. What’s your next trip with two little boys?

Brian: So I haven’t had much of a paternity with this, birthing of the book that’s happening.

Jen: That’s true.

Brian: But I am going to take them to Thailand for a month.

Jen: Beautiful.

Brian: When little Cooper’s three months old, we’re going to stop in the Middle East on the way, in Oman, there’s this beautiful resort. I’ve never been to Oman. So going to take a week in the Middle East. And then I think do a month in Thailand, which by the way, will be one of the top destinations this year because White Lotus is about to come out and it takes place at the most stunning hotels in Thailand. So you’re going to see a lot of people similar to what it did to Italy. Thailand’s going to be a

hotspot.

Jen: So funny. I have a million emails that come to me because of something I’ve Googled or something I’ve signed up for. And I delete almost everything. I unsubscribe, like it’s my paying job, but what shows up in my inbox week after week from the Points Guy, I’m like, save. I just, it’s so useful. Cause I travel for both work and pleasure and I have learned so much from you. I cannot believe it. One of my girlfriends is inside my house right now working on a project and she is the one who taught me about you. And so I was asking her just now, I’m like, I’m about to go talk to Brian.

She’s like that’s my hero. I’m like, I know. She followed your tactics to a T and she has traveled. virtually for free for years and years, just using her points, using her miles and being smart about it. So really anybody can do this. I love what you said at the top of the show. You don’t have to be wealthy or fancy to do this.

This is available and accessible to anybody who’s just a living human being who uses a card in a smart way. We all have to buy groceries. We all have to buy gas. So all of that could be working for us. And you are the best. You’re the best Sherpa through this land.

So congratulations on your book. I am just so glad for you and proud of you. Everybody listening, we’re going to round up all these links. How To Win At Travel is out wherever books are sold now. And if you’re a person like me who likes to hold it in my hand and look at it.

Amy: It is a cute book. Look at this.

Jen: Look at the cover.

Amy: I love it.

Jen: It’s darling. It’s darling. It’s useful. It’s your travel Bible. So oh, by the way, fun thing. I’m coming back to your neck of the woods at Halloween. I’m going to be back at Lambertville. They do like a whole halloween extravaganza, as you well know, and I’m going with my sisters and we are going, we’ve rented the same house that I rented for MeCamp a couple of years ago, and we are going as three different iterations of Elton John.

Brian: Oh my gosh.

Jen: Yeah.

Brian: You have to come to my farm. I just got piglets. We’ve got alpacas.

Jen: So that’s why I’m telling you. I’m just bringing me and my wild sisters to the farm and meet the piglets. I know it.

Thanks for being on the show. I’m so happy to see you again.

Brian: Thank you for having me. Safe travels, everyone.

Jen: All right, you guys. We barely even started. There’s so much under the surface of everything Brian knows and is ready to teach you about travel. So if you go to jenhatmaker.com under the podcast tab, we’ll have this whole episode because I’m telling you, let me look up here, I have six tabs open that I opened while he was talking because I didn’t want to forget it.

So we are going to have a roundup for you over there of everything you need to follow Brian. So all of his socials, links to his book anything that we talked about on the show, I’m just telling you, his information is a game changer. So do yourself a favor, start today. There’s a really easy way, low hanging fruit to get into this game and gosh, you’ll be so glad you did.

So thank you for being here. Thank you for being amazing listeners. We sure love creating the show for you and we have tons of awesome guests coming up, amazing episodes, fantastic conversations. You’re not going to want to miss any of them. So make sure that you are subscribing wherever you listen to podcasts. That’ll take you literally five seconds.

Also, you can always watch us. You can watch all of our interviews over at YouTube. We record them all. So if you ever want to see us and see our guests and see our pretty podcast studio, which everyone always comments on.

Amy: She’s a beaut.

Jen: She’s a beaut. You can go over to my YouTube channel.

All right, everybody. See you next week.

 

 

Resources Mentioned in This Episode:

 

TSA Pre-Check

CLEAR

Skymall

How to Win at Travel by Brian Kelly

Are Your Miles a Mess? Here’s How to Put Them to Use by Seth Kugel, New York Times

Chase Sapphire Preferred

Amex Gold

Point.Me

Point.Me/Amex

BILT card by Wells Fargo (for rent)

Google Flights

Google Explore 

Timeshifter App

White Lotus filming location, Season 2 

White Lotus filming location, Season 3